The Prime Directive

[Elok]

Well, they're self-reliant in the sense that their numbers can't outstrip their resources.  And I wouldn't say Bolivarian socialism, or whatever it's called, is really intrinsic to Venezuelan culture.  But why should we consider the survival of a cultural group per se?  Cultural sets are not living entities, and people do modify their cultures.  We don't think of tribal Germanic groups as having "died out"; their cultures mingled with Roman and Christian culture to form something different, and the Germans were no worse off.

I don't know that societies should forcibly intervene to repress perverse customs in all cases--perhaps not even in most.  A softer touch would do better--offering trade and educational opportunities.  At present, the local governments seem to be treating the Yanomamo culture (as it presently exists) as something to be preserved inviolate.  But people often benefit when cultures change.  It's easy for us to overlook this, but even the New World societies we overthrew were hardly static.  The Aztec empire was younger than the US is now when Cortez came along, IIRC.  And the Plains Indians adopted the horse, and radically modified their societies to take advantage of it, with remarkable speed.

I have an even grumpier rant for the idea of "cultural appropriation," but I don't think anybody here really believes in that so I'll keep it to myself.

[Rusty Edge]

Well, introducing law, education, or religion might solve their problems, but there's still the risk of disease, addiction, etc., failure to adapt to a modern economy. I guess that's kind of the point of "The prime directive".

Why should we consider the survival of a cultural group per say?  Cool question. I have an answer, I'd like to ponder it some more.  Can I get back to you on that?

[Unorthodox]

Basically, their way of life produces no winners;

Define winner. 

[Unorthodox]

I am sure few people miss the Aztec practice of ripping slaves hearts out and sacrificing them to the gods. 

 

[Elok]

Basically, their way of life produces no winners;

Define winner.

Most unjust societies produce winners and losers, right?  Somebody is profiting from the injustice.  So, the antebellum South was definitely very bad for slaves, and not particularly good for the majority of whites; the big landowners bought up more and more of the land, leaving the poorer majority to scrape by on little plots on the periphery.  The closest thing the South had to a middle class were white people who owned, say, five slaves and as many acres.  Even they had no real prospects for advancement in their underdeveloped, agrarian society.  The only reason so many of those poor whites fought for slavery was that they couldn't bear the thought of black people being their equal.  As long as the slaves were underfoot, poor crackers had a kind of equality with even the wealthiest plantation lords.

I don't know if there are any privileged classes among the Yanomamo.  It's possible that, say, shamans are personally inviolate and get an extra share of wives.  But if so, they're a very small elite.  By and large, everyone in this society is about equally badly off.  Women are more routinely subject to violence, including rape, but are significantly less likely to be actually killed.  I guess it's sort of better to be a man, but there's no entrenched interest to defend here.

[Unorthodox]

My sole knowledge of them comes from Cannibal Holocaust, which is taken with a few pounds of salt as one of, if not the first "found footage" subgenre horror film.  As with all things horror that might have had potential at my place, I thus have done a cursory research into them. 

My understanding is the word Yanomamo is really a made up one to represent a few hundred tribes.  Each village more or less has it's own internal political structure with coalitions among nearby villages not unheard of.  There's debate whether the violence has been proliferated by the influence of western culture or not, as it tends to center around areas where 'culture' is competing with resources, thus the villages must compete with each other more. 

[Elok]

It's the norm for non-state communities in close proximity to spend extended periods of time at war.  There's no higher power to mediate or enforce peace, so the only thing preventing a lengthy cycle of bloody retaliation is . . . fear of an endless cycle of bloody retaliation.  Which is to say, relations between these villages are much the same as relations between states prior to the invention of nukes, except that these societies typically lack the concept of a military-civilian distinction since they don't produce enough to support a dedicated military class.  I've not read a book exclusively about the Yanomamo yet, but run into them in several.  I aim to fix that when I come back from MD at the end of May.

[Buster's Uncle]

I 'spose the profitable tack for this conversation to take would be to get into precisely what intervention you'd like to see take place...

[Unorthodox]

Given the lack of natural predators, I'm not so sure warfare isn't just what nature/god intended for man. 

[Elok]

Buncle, I would suggest beginning with trade incentives, to encourage voluntary cooperation.  At least some Yanomamo land has gold; trade them valuable modern goods (e.g. rain gear, medical supplies, interesting foods not available locally) for access to it, or pay them same to scout or mine it (in a sustainable way, obviously with nothing usable as a weapon in the payment).  Offer voluntary, non-binding mediation to settle disputes between villages, to decrease the frequency of massacres.  It would have to start small, but trade and exposure to new ideas have proven highly corrosive to old values in the past.  Just off the top of my head.

[Unorthodox]

The gold is more problem than it is solution at this point. 

Honest question, has trade with a 'backwards' civilization ever been anything close to a fair exchange?  To go into a culture that has no concept of money, and offer them items of superficial value compared to the monetary value of what you're taking is not exactly an enlightened course of action. 

[Spacy]

I have about 10 lbs of glass beads.  Please give me Manhatten.  Thank you.

[Elok]

Did I say "an inferior quantity of" anywhere in there?  No.  I'm specifically proposing a fair trade, ie not acting like SOBs.  The chief difficulty there would be the ability of their society to absorb the value of gold; a week's production could give them more crap than they know what to do with.  Might have to start with something lower-value, though I don't know what.

[Spacy]

Ah, but value is in the eyes of the beholder.

They may value the glass beads a lot more than a tiny island.  Really.  Today it sounds absurd, but glass beads are not the easiest thing to make, and if you have never seen them before they are new and unique. 

If they are completely happy with the loincloth, giving them a tuxedo will not be a good trade.  Even a pair of camo shorts might not have any value.

Reminds me of when I was in the Peace Corps in Ecuador.  I was working with a 50 family indigenous village high in the mountains.  They used the bushes for the past 1000 odd  years to go potty in.  Along comes this gringo who offers to give them a bunch of outhouses, along with directions on how to clean them and the reasons why to keep them clean.  They agree.  We build 60 odd outhouses.  6 months later I return to see how things are going and there are only 2 of them left.  One is next to the school and looks like it hasn't been cleaned ever, and the other is being used to house pigs.  The rest were all dismantled and the parts (bowls & vent pipes) were sold and the cinder blocks and corrugated roofs used to improved their homes.

We value not going to poo in the bushes.  They didn't. 

[Unorthodox]

Did I say "an inferior quantity of" anywhere in there?  No.  I'm specifically proposing a fair trade, ie not acting like SOBs.  The chief difficulty there would be the ability of their society to absorb the value of gold; a week's production could give them more crap than they know what to do with.  Might have to start with something lower-value, though I don't know what.

And why should they be the ones to absorb the value our society placed on things?  History is not kind to the solution you propose.