The Billion Year Backup System (working title)(Workshop & Comments thread)

[Buster's Uncle]

SO - I dunno, I think I've read everything Known Space (but the first and last {x} of Worlds books - which I haven't gotten ahold of at all yet) at least twice, and may be only The Girl in Del Ray Crater that few times.

I DO have a memory on me for things I comprehend and find interesting - Solver says my newb-at-the-time butt is probably the greatest living historian of WPC people/events; I was paying attention to the people politics at the time, that forum being born of politics and I born to the community shortly before and studying it.

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Okay - I like that idea for the 'snatches, at least if you can make me believe in their secretions working on a range of alien to-them species all in some desirable way and tasting good, to boot.  The 'snatch sex thing works, IMAO.

[Rusty Edge]

There IS no set term for the sunflowers, IIRC - just, if you're go to bother to make the distinction from the earth flowers in a Known Space story, Slaver works better.

So - for the space habitat, some sort of missile to make a distracting ice cloud in the other direction while you fly up and dock?  Maybe - lotta situations where that wouldn't be practical.  It could work better on a planet, especially with a strategic rise at the approach point.

That was an idea for how did/could  the Tnuctipun control the Slaver sunflowers on the estates.

Well, today wasn't productive, on account of maladies.  Maybe I'll get somewhere with it tomorrow.

[Rusty Edge]

I was confused because I didn't recall ever using the term deep space sunflowers myself.

I did cut and paste some wiki , because I wanted to remember all of the artifacts to discuss, and I just rewrote.

Alright, I think I can explain the juice working on different species, but I agree that tasting good to different species is implausible.

When I woke up I had a new idea. It tastes different to everybody, because of the hormones and pheromones interacting with the various sensory memories, stimulating whatever is most pleasurable to that person.  That's why the flavor can't be duplicated. Otherwise it's probably just a slightly yeasty smelling moderate strength booze, like a Belgian barley wine.

[Buster's Uncle]

Both versions of the Rich Mann passage:

"And the sunflowers?", I suggested. Deep space 'sunflowers' resembled sunflowers on Earth, but they were stunted, and had mirror-like heads, which turned easily and accurately. They could focus on a threat, such as a bird, and blind or burn it, depending how many of each there were.

"And the sunflowers?", I suggested. Deep space 'sunflowers' resembled sunflowers on Earth, but they were stunted, and had mirror-like heads, which turned easily and accurately. They could focus on a threat, such as a bird, and blind or burn it, depending how many of each there were.

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So everybody's descended from food yeast unless they go back impossibly long, which was biochemically compatible with something Slavers ate -'snatches, at the very least- and I find it incredibly improbable that so long after, so many species on different planets with different conditions and crust compositions still retain enough compatibility to eat each other and get drunk on ethanol -but men and Kzin do, so there that is- and Kzanol MUST have eaten something beside the beef jerky sticks in his pockets extensively in the months he was out of stasis, so it's Star Trek and we just roll with that part.  So sure, the 'snatch secretions effect at least Humans and Thrintun is a pleasurable way - and let's not sweat the tasting good, when the rest was the source stretching credibility.  I don't even believe in Jinx maintaining the equatorial zone habitable to snatches so long...

[Rusty Edge]

Alright. I'll just get back to writing.

[Buster's Uncle]

You know, surely nothing to do with your story, but kitten-watching thoughts and I came here first.

That isn't Kzanol in the Smithsonian.  ARM was only beginning to be the science police in the Garner/Hamilton era -and/or they couldn't suppress the story entirely because of Belter involvement- but you don't put working hydrogen bombs on display in museums where people know where to go figure out how to steal them.  You don't even put the real casing on display, but a deliberately-poor/misleading replica, if you even bother with anything but a photo, which you don't.  The Sea Statue is actually leaded glass, and Lord Knows what they did with Kzanol - poured 50 tons of metal over him and put the block in the vault with the suppressed doomsday tech, probably.

I met Larry Niven at a con in 1988 - asked him why a being physically capable of chasing down a Ringworld 'rabbit' evolved a smart brain at all.  He said he didn't know, but the other fan standing there and I got to speculating about conditions on their homeworld and perhaps being able to throw rocks being a handy survival skill -Larry just listened; he loves that sort of party chatter- but you know, Speaker being so impressed with agile climbing and asserting his ancestors were plains cats is intensely problematic for imagining why in the world they evolved hands.  -In our sole real Earth example, it's a pretty sure thing that hands come before brains, and only stupid tree creatures need hands...

[Rusty Edge]

Yes, I agree that only tree creatures have hands, or evolve them.

Exception. I had a great dane once. All of her bones were long. Her toes were so long that she could reach under the couch with one paw and grasp her tennis ball and pull it out through the shag carpet, not roll it. Still, no thumbs.

Well, there was that Niven story  ( was it a Draco's Tavern series?) about the guy who got invited to hunt with wolfhound-like Aliens which called themselves The Folk. I guess he noticed the same thing.

But that's just mammals, come to think of it. Frogs and lizards are pretty "Handy".

[Buster's Uncle]

That mostly has to do with climbing, though.

[Rusty Edge]

I've been re-reading and tweaking after a couple days off. I am going to re-read the stuff here now and see if I overlooked anything. Your suggestions, my ideas, descriptions, etc.

And yes, you're right. Hands before brains. Maybe tree climbing is what makes  things like lemurs, monkeys, apes, raccoons and bears live long enough to grow some brains. Assorted cats, too.

[Buster's Uncle]

Brains come into it because a smart squirrel already has hands, so he can manipulate things around him in sophisticated ways when he's born with a smrt mutation.  A smart rabbit just gets suicidal depressed.

...I was thinking some thoughts about pack cats taking down prey too large to wrap limbs around and just weigh down -say twice the size of an elephant- and so improvements in their ability to cling were selected for.  Retractile claws are great, grasping digits along with them better.  They'd scream, leap, hang on - and more and more do it until they bleed and exhaust their prey.  Once they had fingers -forward-facing eyes of predators just as well grant binocular vision, which goes well with the optional upright walking for distance peeking in the tall, tall savannah grass their giant prey browsed- THEN rock-throwing turned out to be useful against vexatious flyers that thought their kzittens tasted fine, and suddenly they're a species with a complex pride pecking order and a cooperative hunting style that needs sophisticated coordination selecting for brains smarter at communicating and negotiating, and they've got hands and the most basic tool of all -a rock- already in use, and they're on the road to becoming the Most Dangerous Predator...

[Rusty Edge]

Love the part about rocks as a bird defense.

[Buster's Uncle]

Babboon troops will throw rocks at leopards, I've heard.

-Hands also better for reaching into burrows for small prey, the kzinrettes made better birthing nests with them, and the rock-throwing was frequently good for a nosh - nail rabbits that way, and the big eagles made a tables-turned meal...  Eventually, some smart customer took advantage of all the time spent upright anyway and fashioned a shoulder sling to always have both forepaws free and a couple throwing rocks handy at the same time...

[Rusty Edge]

I've noticed that when you've used the word sling recently, that you're probably referring to what I call a brush hook- an axe handle with a flat, hooked blade.

[Buster's Uncle]

Sort of a roughly triangular loop on the end of the handle with the flat bottom edge a serrated blade.  You swing along the ground standing pretty straight with the handle upright lined up with your arm.  I think they're using them by the road at the beginning of Cool Hand Luke.

[Rusty Edge]

Okay, I know what you mean now.