Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming

[Yitzi]

Unless bases are really far apart, assuming adequate sensor/ZOC coverage and an active defense

Depends how much of an active defense, and how soon it can be ready.  You can get away with a lot more of your defense being passive at the start if they take more time getting through your territory.  Obviously you'll need an active defense eventually to actually get rid of the invaders, but with a strong passive defense as well, not having roads everywhere buys you more time to respond (build counterattackers or even research the necessary tech.)

[Earthmichael]

Indeed, I only build magtubes between bases, and to some remote harvesting areas.  Occasionally, I will build a magtube branch to get me to within 3 squares of a mindworm incursion, so that my rover can attack at full strength.

You should always have units available in various regions for active defense, so that you can hit invaders (especially mindworms) the moment they show up.  Once you have your cities linked with magtubes, you won't need region based active defense, since you can get to any region on magtubes.  But I always keep a lot of units available for active defense.

With land-based mindworms, it is particularly important to hit them the turn that they show up.  If you do, then you can kill an entire stack of 10+ land-based mindworms with a single empath land-based attacker.   If you wait, they will spread out, and then you will have to kill each mindworm individually; meanwhile, the mindworms will get a chance to kill any of your units in range.

With human invaders, the need for immediate attack is not quite as urgent.  Still, if you can hit them while they are still stacked together (usually transports will dump all of the carried units in one or two stacks and hurry away), then the other units in the stack suffer collateral damage.  It also minimizes how many of your units that they will get a chance to attack before you can stop them.

[Yitzi]

You should always have units available in various regions for active defense, so that you can hit invaders (especially mindworms) the moment they show up.  Once you have your cities linked with magtubes, you won't need region based active defense, since you can get to any region on magtubes.  But I always keep a lot of units available for active defense.

Ah; I generally consider that a waste of resources, and prefer to keep force counts low (some defense in each base, not much more) unless things are getting serious.

meanwhile, the mindworms will get a chance to kill any of your units in range.

Well, they can usually be evacuated (in either the case of mind worms or invaders).

[ete]

Having an effective active defense is likely to be both much more useful (can go kill MWs, stop foes from sitting back and killing your improvements) and much cheaper than maintaining enough passive defense at each base to hold off attacks, because you need fewer units to defend if your counterattack is strong and you're well aware of them being on their way (sensors).

Evacuating? And letting the worms come to your bases/eat improvements, or the foes do what they like?

[Earthmichael]

For the reasons ete mentioned, I think it is very shortsighted not to keep a strong active defense.  I have had midgame pops that brought a dozen mindworms visiting, and lategame pops with over 20.  Killing all of them immediately is critically important.  I will divert as many formers as I need to extend magtubes if necessary in order for my rover to reach them with only 3 moves on road (6 with hovertank).  God help you if you did not build roads in the vicinity of the mindworm boil, because unless you have enough speed 2 formers to build the road on the fly, you are out of luck!

If you can reach the land-based mindworm boil with your rover (I generally keep some empath rovers for this purpose), you can kill them all in a single successful attack!  If they are air based (locusts), then oddly enough you can still attack them with your empath rovers, but you will only kill one at a time.  Once locusts start showing up, I buld a lot more empath units for active defense.  But even after locusts start to show, I would estimate 3/4 of the boils are still land-based.

If you fail to kill the mindworms (or at least contain them with trance units), they will spread out rapidly, destroying units, destroying terrain improvements, and attacking cities (killing population and improvements once they wipe out the defenders).  And now they will be much harder to kill, because you will have to track down and kill each mindworm individually.

So I can't overstate the importance of active defense, and how foolish it would be to delay even one turn, given how much harder they will be to kill one turn later, and how much damage they could do in that turn!

I generally build clean defenders; although they cost more up front, they pay back quickly, because I rarely lose my active defense attackers, so they can hang around for 100 turns or longer.  I generally build a several X/1/1 attackers to attack human invaders, where X is the highest attack I have available.  (Understand that if I am invaded, I will build magtubes to the point of invasion, so my infantry can attack at full strength.)  Such units are relatively inexpensive, often costing as little as 3 rows of minerals for clean attackers.  If I expect to face human attack before I get magtubes, then I build some rover attackers first, typically 6/1/2, or whatever I have available.  I sometimes don't make these clean (to lessen the cost), but make sure I have only one homed to each city, as the only non-clean unit that city is supporting.

I also build several (sometimes lots) of clean empath rovers, and station them in various sectors of my domain.  These are often dedicated mindworm attackers, so I will make the 1/1/2 Clean Empath, or depending on the reactor I have available, I will add whatever level of attack I can as long as it does not increase the cost too much.  I usually build these earlier than the human defenders, simply because I face mindworm attacks far sooner than human attacks in most games.  Once I have magtubes available, I will then shift to building 1/1/1 Clean Empath, which has the amazingly low cost of only 2 rows!  Then I depend upon magtubes (usually built on the fly that turn) to shuttle the low cost but amazingly effective worm-killers to the boil.

[Yitzi]

because you need fewer units to defend if your counterattack is strong and you're well aware of them being on their way (sensors).

Not always; defensive sensors and defensive facilities are pretty significant multipliers.

Evacuating? And letting the worms come to your bases/eat improvements, or the foes do what they like?

For your bases, passive defense, or even (against worms) attacking with non-empath base defenders if you're not running Free Market, would still work well.  Terraforming would take some damage, of course, but unless you're frequently at war it would seem to me that replacing it would be easier than having to have a full army ready at all times.

I have had midgame pops that brought a dozen mindworms visiting, and lategame pops with over 20.  Killing all of them immediately is critically important.

Why?  Even if it takes a turn or two extra (it's not going to be more, as you've still got a network between bases and pops are always near the responsible base), it's not the end of the world.  Especially if you have a few empath choppers (possibly with r-lasers); those clean up worms fairly fast if you've got a good PLANET rating (and if you're getting a lot of pops, you should probably switch to running Green, and Cybernetic if you can).

The ability to kill a lot of them together is definitely nice, but probably not essential (especially since they'll probably all head toward the nearest base and therefore not spread out that much anyway.)  Well, unless you're running Free Market even when ecodamage gets really high, but then you can cut ecodamage by focusing on nutrients and energy rather than minerals so that it doesn't happen that often.

Also, if you have magtubes between your bases with a typical spacing, most if not all squares can be attacked by a rover in 1 turn anyway; a magtube network is as good as a system of psi gates on the continent, and that's enough for rovers to attack any square in any base's radius without a hurry penalty.

I generally build clean defenders; although they cost more up front, they pay back quickly, because I rarely lose my active defense attackers, so they can hang around for 100 turns or longer.

Of course, that's still resources that mean delaying facilities or formers.

I generally build a several X/1/1 attackers to attack human invaders, where X is the highest attack I have available.  (Understand that if I am invaded, I will build magtubes to the point of invasion, so my infantry can attack at full strength.)

So then what's to keep the enemy from leaving some invaders in reserve (possibly with former support) to move up and kill your counterattackers?

Once I have magtubes available, I will then shift to building 1/1/1 Clean Empath, which has the amazingly low cost of only 2 rows!  Then I depend upon magtubes (usually built on the fly that turn) to shuttle the low cost but amazingly effective worm-killers to the boil.

The net result of that is that each loss to mindworms costs you 20 less minerals, but most fungal pops (regardless of whether you lose units) cost you an extra 3 former-turns for the on-the-fly magtube, more if you have to cancel something to get the formers available.  With a low loss rate (which should happen with empath troops), I doubt it'd be worth it.

[Earthmichael]

The key is to kill the mindworms BEFORE they can do any damage.  And yes, they will spread widely apart, as far as road and fungus can take them.  Considering that 49 potential squares can be reached at 3 squares distance, it is unlikey that very much clumping will occur after they move, and if you don't get them all then, they will spread out further.

The cost of send some formers to build magtubes is NOTHING compared to the havoc 20+ mindworms can do in one turn.  Each of those 20 mindworms will kill a unit is one is close by, or attack a base, or destroy a terrain improvement.  Of these, perhaps the least damaging is the terrain damage, yet it would cost a minimum of 80 former turns to repair the damage 20 mindworms can cause.  And that is if they hit relatively small stuff.  If the also take out some boreholes, mirrors, and such, it could be a LOT more turns.  So a dozen or 18 turns to build out the magtubes is a cheap price to pay.

Then if I don't kill them on turn 1, instead of killing them with a single attacker on my part, I have to make 20+ separate attacks.  Why would you advocate such a strategy?  The defensive troops are not that costly, and are cheap insurance.  And you can have mindworm attacks while producing ZERO ecodamge; it has happened plenty of times to me.

As for the invaders, if they do have a second wave, they will need to attack the same turn that they land, which probably means that they are more costly.  Also, I usually build a few defensive units, that I move to protect my X-1-1 clean attackers, so that I take a minimum of casualties in counterattacks.  Perhaps t_ras can chime in here; he has recently seen my active defense in action, including my defensive ECM rovers to handle counterattacks.

Also, if I have the extra formers available, once I have constructed the magtube, I also build a sensor near the mindworm boil or invasion point, for the extra bonus.

[Yitzi]

The key is to kill the mindworms BEFORE they can do any damage.  And yes, they will spread widely apart, as far as road and fungus can take them.  Considering that 49 potential squares can be reached at 3 squares distance, it is unlikey that very much clumping will occur after they move, and if you don't get them all then, they will spread out further.

The cost of send some formers to build magtubes is NOTHING compared to the havoc 20+ mindworms can do in one turn.  Each of those 20 mindworms will kill a unit is one is close by, or attack a base, or destroy a terrain improvement.  Of these, perhaps the least damaging is the terrain damage, yet it would cost a minimum of 80 former turns to repair the damage 20 mindworms can cause.  And that is if they hit relatively small stuff.  If the also take out some boreholes, mirrors, and such, it could be a LOT more turns.  So a dozen or 18 turns to build out the magtubes is a cheap price to pay.

I suppose that makes sense.  However, keep in mind that your "49 potential squares" calculation is assuming roads everywhere; if you don't have roads except between bases, they're going to be a lot more limited in where they can go.

And you can have mindworm attacks while producing ZERO ecodamge; it has happened plenty of times to me.

Even with a lot of mindworms?  I've never seen that.

(By the way, something you should probably know about mindworm pop numbers: The number of mindworms (and whether they're there at all, and I think whether they include locusts) depends on how many pops you've had previously: The more pops, the worse it is.  However, there's a bug (fixed in all versions of my patch) where building tree farms, hybrid forests, centauri preserves, and temples of planet count as pops for that purpose (they never spawn worms themselves, but do make future pops worse, though less likely to happen.)

As for the invaders, if they do have a second wave, they will need to attack the same turn that they land, which probably means that they are more costly.

So you always manage to destroy the entire invading force the first turn?

Also, what if they're not landing, but rather coming from elsewhere on the continent?

Also, I usually build a few defensive units, that I move to protect my X-1-1 clean attackers, so that I take a minimum of casualties in counterattacks.

Ah, that makes more sense.  Having only X-1-1 units didn't seem like it'd be the way to go.

[Earthmichael]

The key is to kill the mindworms BEFORE they can do any damage.  And yes, they will spread widely apart, as far as road and fungus can take them.  Considering that 49 potential squares can be reached at 3 squares distance, it is unlikey that very much clumping will occur after they move, and if you don't get them all then, they will spread out further.

The cost of send some formers to build magtubes is NOTHING compared to the havoc 20+ mindworms can do in one turn.  Each of those 20 mindworms will kill a unit is one is close by, or attack a base, or destroy a terrain improvement.  Of these, perhaps the least damaging is the terrain damage, yet it would cost a minimum of 80 former turns to repair the damage 20 mindworms can cause.  And that is if they hit relatively small stuff.  If the also take out some boreholes, mirrors, and such, it could be a LOT more turns.  So a dozen or 18 turns to build out the magtubes is a cheap price to pay.

I suppose that makes sense.  However, keep in mind that your "49 potential squares" calculation is assuming roads everywhere; if you don't have roads except between bases, they're going to be a lot more limited in where they can go.

Even if they only spread to 9 squares (because of no roads nearby), the effect on those 9 squares is devestating.  And it still means 9 places to attack, instead of 1.  And they still continue to spread.  And the problem is, if you do not have roads already built, you may not be able to reach the mindworms to kill them when they first arrive.

And you can have mindworm attacks while producing ZERO ecodamge; it has happened plenty of times to me.

Even with a lot of mindworms?  I've never seen that.

It has happen to me plenty of times in Market Forces.  All of my bases produce zero ecodamage, but I still get spreading fungus (almost always containing a pile of worms) and pop (which always carry a pile of worms).

(By the way, something you should probably know about mindworm pop numbers: The number of mindworms (and whether they're there at all, and I think whether they include locusts) depends on how many pops you've had previously: The more pops, the worse it is.  However, there's a bug (fixed in all versions of my patch) where building tree farms, hybrid forests, centauri preserves, and temples of planet count as pops for that purpose (they never spawn worms themselves, but do make future pops worse, though less likely to happen.)

I have tree farms, hybrid forests, and centauri preserves in every city, so that could account for the high number of worms I get.

As for the invaders, if they do have a second wave, they will need to attack the same turn that they land, which probably means that they are more costly.

So you always manage to destroy the entire invading force the first turn?

Also, what if they're not landing, but rather coming from elsewhere on the continent?

I nearly always manage to destroy the invaders very promptly; the ones I do not kill the first turn, generally have suffered a couple of burst of collateral damage, which reduces their effectiveness.

If they are coming overland, then this indicates to me that diplomacy has failed (I usually treaty or pack with those close to me), and that I need to gear up for full blown war.  In this case, I am not content to just repel their probing forces, but I will probably switch over to miliary production and make my next goal the acquisition of my neighbor's empire.  I will still use my active defense units to destroy what I can of the enemy, and I may break roads or magtubes if needed to slow down a larger enemy force until I have time to gear up. 

[Yitzi]

Even if they only spread to 9 squares (because of no roads nearby), the effect on those 9 squares is devestating.  And it still means 9 places to attack, instead of 1.  And they still continue to spread.  And the problem is, if you do not have roads already built, you may not be able to reach the mindworms to kill them when they first arrive.

In my experience, they haven't spread all that much, though you apparently have a lot more experience than I do.

It has happen to me plenty of times in Market Forces.  All of my bases produce zero ecodamage, but I still get spreading fungus (almost always containing a pile of worms) and pop (which always carry a pile of worms).

Wait, you have 0 ecodamage but still get pops?  Would I see it with the save you provided earlier?

I have tree farms, hybrid forests, and centauri preserves in every city, so that could account for the high number of worms I get.

Well, it's one of the two things changed in my patch version 1.2 as compared to Kyrub's (if you use default alphax variables), so you might want to try a game with that and see if that helps.

I nearly always manage to destroy the invaders very promptly; the ones I do not kill the first turn, generally have suffered a couple of burst of collateral damage, which reduces their effectiveness.

Doesn't that require that they all be more or less in the same squares?  If you've got magtubes everywhere, why can't rovers spread out the turn they land?

If they are coming overland, then this indicates to me that diplomacy has failed

So you can see them in time?  How far ahead of your magtubes do your sensors extend?

and I may break roads or magtubes if needed to slow down a larger enemy force until I have time to gear up.

Of course, that does hurt your movement as well; the advantage of a network between bases is that you can use it and the enemy can't (well, except by taking your bases or avoiding ZoC somehow).

[Earthmichael]

To answer a few questions:

1. I don't build magtubes everywhere.  You are quite correct, that would be insane, from a defensive standpoint.  I generally only build magtubes between cities, and an occasional distant route like to an energy farm.  I do upgrade a few roads to magtubs on the fly if needed to reach a mindworm infestation or an enemy invasion at full strength for my active defense.

2. I do occasionally get pops with 0 ecodamage at all of my cities.  (They may be "fungus spreading", but either way, they are packed with lots of mindworms.)  The save of Market Forces I posted illustrates this.  Make sure that all bases are at zero ecodamage.  About every 4 turns or so, you will still get a major big time mindworm invasion.

3. One of the big reasons for roads everywhere is crawler adjustments and daisy chaining.  It makes it much easier for me to get crawlers to exactly the squares I want them on, and to push new crawlers 3 squares to an older crawler, and push it down the road to another good place to crawl, perhaps displacing another unit, etc.  (daisy chaining).  This way, if the closest useful uncrawled resource is 27 squares away, instead of moving 9 turns down the road before I finally get to it, I daisy chain so that the new crawler is IMMEDIATELY useful.  A good road network helps a lot with this.  Also, sometimes I want to juggle which cities crawlers get some high value resources (like 7 mineral mines).  Roads help me shuffle around my crawlers as I want.

4. Roads also help to get a pack of formers to the next place I want to terraform, with some movement intact so that I can terraform as I move down the road, and still get 2 moves down the road (instead of the usual 3), but terraforming as I go.

[Buster's Uncle]

...I make a point of trying to bottleneck my magtube networks through my cities, so only I (and allies) can get good use of them...

[Yitzi]

2. I do occasionally get pops with 0 ecodamage at all of my cities.  (They may be "fungus spreading", but either way, they are packed with lots of mindworms.)  The save of Market Forces I posted illustrates this.  Make sure that all bases are at zero ecodamage.  About every 4 turns or so, you will still get a major big time mindworm invasion.

I found the reason: It happens right after you build a robotic assembly plant.  Robotic assembly plants provide the bonus minerals on the turn they're built, and thereby push you over the clean mineral limit.  If you check the base in question after the pop, you will see that you are no longer at 0 ecodamage.

[Earthmichael]

That brings up one of my peeves with SMAC.

All checks should be done based on the state at the end of your turn.

So drones riots should be checked based on your state at the end of your turn, before population growth and before anything is built.  That is the only thing you can actually check on your turn.  If your city list shows all of the drones under control, you should be safe to end the turn.  Instead, you have to micromanage, checking every city if it is going to have population growth, or is something going to be built that will increase drones, etc.

Similarly, ecodamage should be checked based on your state at the end of the turn, before anything new is built.  For again, that is the only thing that you can easily check.  It is too much micromanagement to worry about whether a particular build or SP might put your over the ecodamage limit.

This is probably something that cannot be modded, but it is a real bother.

[Yitzi]

This is probably something that cannot be modded, but it is a real bother.

In order to mod it, you'd need to have it check each thing twice, once for the effect and once for the display.  It would probably be easier just to make it so that such things don't cause drone riots and ecodamage the first turn they occur, but even that would be a pain to do.