Psi attack on non-native units - Ever worth it?

[Paramatter]

As neat as the idea of people armed chiefly with psychic powers seems, I'm not sure I see any situation that would really justify designing units with the psi attack weapon when you could have mind worms, as well as there being special abilities specifically geared towards making psychic units less effective/dead quicker, but unless I've missed something there don't seem to be any special abilities to compliment psychic units.  Even in SMAniaC (which I haven't played but have been looking over a bit) the psi weapon seems to come along fairly late and you'll have worms before you reach it anyhow.

So...  Thoughts?

[gwillybj]

It actually does work very well, but you can almost never win against a Gaian. Dissociative Wave is a good add-on.

[Yitzi]

Keep in mind that you can have psi attack without psi defense (useful if both sides have high PLANET).  Also, psi attack on non-native units means that they can get better movement than mind worms (especially if they hit elite), and can use your normal morale-boosting facilities/social engineering.  (Elite is a lot easier to get than Demon Boil).  They can be cheaper than worms as well.

Consider something like a Spartan ?/1*2 hovertank when they're running Green/Power and have the Command Nexus.  Those things are going to be quite a nasty attack force (particularly against technologically superior enemies), and only cost 5 rows each (admittedly, that's 65 minerals).

Alternatively, they can get speeders instead of hovertanks; it's half the speed (worse over rough terrain), but it only costs 39 (and you can raise armor to 2 and it'll still be only 39).

(And if you've got the Cloning Vats to remove the penalty of Power, and have the Dream Twister as well...)

It actually does work very well, but you can almost never win against a Gaian.

Not true; if you have a high PLANET rating as well, you get the bonus when attacking them, and they don't get the bonus when defending.

[Buster's Uncle]

AND - hard to beat psi weapons for attacking bases.

[Yitzi]

AND - hard to beat psi weapons for attacking bases.

Well, until you get access to Blink Displacer.  Or if you can probe the defenses away.  But I think the question was more about "psi weapons as opposed to mind worms" rather than "psi weapons as opposed to conventional."

[Paramatter]

Well, actually I suppose it was a bit of both "psi weapons as opposed to conventional" and "psi weapons as opposed to mind worms" that I was wondering about really.  Thanks for the info, and sorry for the delayed response to my own topic, I've been fairly preoccupied lately...

[Nexii]

Wave Psi Choppers (optional: Gas as a 2nd mod) beat everything on attack.  They ignore base defenses and kill anything cost effectively.

It's actually native life forms that are in (relative) need of help.  They do get PSI defense but it's not enough to make up for slow movement and high production costs.  Mind worms cost 50 which is a lot for a unit that's barely on par with a Scout Rover.  Locusts cost 100 which is a lot relative to Choppers and Needlejets.  Further, they also get hosed badly by Empath/Trance.

[Yitzi]

Wave Psi Choppers (optional: Gas as a 2nd mod) beat everything on attack.  They ignore base defenses and kill anything cost effectively.

Well, scout patrols probably would deal enough damage to them to not be cost effective...but yeah they're definitely overpowered.  Easy to fix, though; in alphax put a 1 in the 5th slot of gas and wave (in that long list of 0s and 1s), and a 0 in the third-to-last slot of wave.

It's actually native life forms that are in (relative) need of help.  They do get PSI defense but it's not enough to make up for slow movement and high production costs.  Mind worms cost 50 which is a lot for a unit that's barely on par with a Scout Rover.  Locusts cost 100 which is a lot relative to Choppers and Needlejets.  Further, they also get hosed badly by Empath/Trance.

On the other hand:
-They get to use fungus as roads, and ignore movement penalty of sea fungus, plus get a healing bonus when in fungus and a defensive bonus attacking enemies in fungus.  Worms might not have a lot of mobility normally, but in a fungus-heavy territory, they're as good as tanks in terms of mobility (and enemy rovers are slowed down to infantry level), and will win pretty much any engagement.
-Keep in mind that by the time psi attack is available any other way, you can get brood pits too (and have them automatically if you're Dawn), cutting it down to 40 for worms, 60 for isles, and 80 for locusts.  Still somewhat expensive, but less so than before.
-They ignore morale; while detrimental if running Power or Fundie (or Thought Control, or as the Spartans or Usurpers), this is a very big advantage when playing Gaians or running Wealth or Eudaimonic.  Deidre running Simple/Green/Wealth/Eudaimonic and using native life has +4 efficiency, +3 economy (and hence +1 commerce rating), and +3 industry with no significant combat downsides.  Of course, someone running Power/Thought Control will be able to do better in morale, but they won't have the same economic advantages.  (This becomes a lot less significant if playing with bugged creches, of course.)
-While Empath and Trance are fairly good against them, they can be mixed in with conventional units to defend against Empath units (and Empath units who also have good attack are fairly expensive), and a high PLANET rating can do a lot to help them beat even Trance units.

Native life isn't overpowered by any means, and isn't even for everyone...but it does have its advantages.

[Nexii]

Yea for sure, good points on late game native life.  It seems that it scales well but is very weak early.  Native life is also decent while you are at a Reactor disadvantage, where they have an attack that scales with the enemy reactor strength.  I find that later game, mindworms have real mobility problems where most fungus gets removed.  But they aren't bad, 40 is a lot less than the minimum cost of singularity reactored units (60).

A 1-1-4* scout patrol costs 60, which isn't cost effective against  4* PSI choppers (90, or 60 without Wave).  You could run fission reactor scout patrols for 10 but then you're limited to making just one per turn, per base.

[Yitzi]

Yea for sure, good points on late game native life.

And I forgot to mention another one: Immunity to subversion.

It seems that it scales well but is very weak early.

True; early on it's usually not worth it except if you're recruiting them rather than building, and/or really want to use psi (remember, psi attack on non-native comes along fairly late).

I find that later game, mindworms have real mobility problems where most fungus gets removed.

If you're using worms a lot, you might want to consider keeping, or even planting fungus in some places.  (Fungus could use a bit of a resource boost, though its inability to be removed via bombardment and military advantages makes it potentially worth it at a bit less production than the alternatives.  Gaians also get a bonus in it.  And if you're playing Gaians, running Green, and get the Manifold Harmonics...)

A 1-1-4* scout patrol costs 60, which isn't cost effective against  4* PSI choppers (90, or 60 without Wave).  You could run fission reactor scout patrols for 10 but then you're limited to making just one per turn, per base.

Don't make a 1-1-4* scout patrol; make a 1-2-1*4 trance synthmetal sentinels, which still only costs 60 and can hold its own.  Or better yet, make a 1-3r-1 trance AAA with whatever reactor makes it cheapest; assuming the PSI choppers are banned from Wave, those things will slaughter the choppers.

EDIT: I just realized that comment was about my suggestion to use scout patrols against the choppers with wave, and you're right; I forgot to take into account that by that point base production is high enough that a scout patrol has an effective cost substantially higher than 10.

[Nexii]

It's more the combination of PSI and Wave that's overpowering than that air can have it (air is just the best chassis).  For example, PSI Wave infantry would also be cost effective against Empath Infantry.

[Yitzi]

It's more the combination of PSI and Wave that's overpowering than that air can have it (air is just the best chassis).  For example, PSI Wave infantry would also be cost effective against Empath Infantry.

Wave is also fairly powerful on aircraft because it negates AAA.  But the suggestions I gave for alphax would block both, as well as combining gas and PSI (another fairly strong combo.)

If you just want to block Wave+PSI, just switch the 5th slot on Wave to a 1.

[Nexii]

Gas + PSI might be ok.  Gas has a cost of +25% to reduce enemy morale by 25%.  If the enemy morale is high, you reduce your cost efficiency.  But on the other hand, it increases your odds of winning battles.

[Yitzi]

Gas + PSI might be ok.  Gas has a cost of +25% to reduce enemy morale by 25%.  If the enemy morale is high, you reduce your cost efficiency.  But on the other hand, it increases your odds of winning battles.

And by quite a bit...still, I think you're right, and it's ok to have.  Wave has to be banned from psi and maybe air, though.