Author Topic: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense  (Read 3077 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2020, 06:52:03 PM »
Children's Creches provide some complicated morale bonuses that are bugged AFAIK but the +1 morale bonus for any unit when attacking from base square is working as designed. ("parents will defend their home to the death"). Even mind worm units benefit from that and additionally get another +1 morale from the Brood Pit for thematically similar reasons. I'm not sure if mind worms were intended to receive both and will probably submit a bug report post and see if Scient wants to do anything about it.

It's a bug.  It's ridiculous on its face.  They didn't do all this separation of MORALE facilities for conventional units, and Lifecyle facilities for indigenous life forms, just for the lolz.  Nevermind obvious differences in the social engineering effects of MORALE and PLANET.  Mindworms parent larvae.  Yes there might be a human mindworm handler involved, but it's not a whole squad of them.  You can't make a mindworm have higher Morale from a Command Center, and it's the Biology Lab that heals a mindworm in 1 turn, not a Command Center.  I just read that in the .PDF of the game manual, not like I knew that off the top of my head.  But it makes perfect sense and is rational.  There are parallel facilities for humans and mindworms.  Bioenhancement Center is what it is because it benefits both tracks instead of just one.  The Children's Creche is not supposed to benefit mindworms.  There is no simulation or narrative justification for this at all.

Quote
I have no idea where your mind worm's additional +1 morale came from if that base doesn't have a Brood Pit.

The obvious suspect is the Biology Lab.  And on that theory, anything with a Lifecycle bonus, such as a Centauri Preserve.  Confirming this hypothesis is left as an exercise to some future person.  These base bonus bugs / undocumented features deserve their own threads in the Bugs forum.

Quote
I am also using Scient so it could be that you're encountering a stock bug that he fixed.

Possible.  Will mention that when finally writing everything up.

Quote
Overly broad and idiosyncratic definition of "exploit".

I say my definition's better than yours.  The bottom line is whether something is seriously overpowered in a game, and not whether the devs put it there deliberately or accidentally.

Quote
An exploit is the use of game rules or limitations to produce an unintended result.

I don't agree at all.  For instance, combining Thermal Boreholes, Condensers, and Supply Crawlers to Get Rich Quick is very much intended in the original game, and it's still an exploit.  Supply Crawler abuse is one of the biggest exploits of the stock game.  Doesn't matter if you were supposed to be able to do it.  They came up with an unbalanced game design that makes the pursuit of most other strategies pointless.  Thinker Mod is even built around this exploit, it leverages it to the hilt!  My mod attempts to blunt the exploit by making all these things more expensive to obtain, and much more research to obtain.

The Copter chassis is an exploit.  It was clearly intended in the original game.  The effects of being able to attack with every single move, are catastrophic.  The game designers were just stupid about this.  The design imperative I think they were probably following was, "Well the game's got too many low level units at a certain point.  We need a handy way to clean them all out."  What could possibly go wrong?

My answer to that is the Copter chassis is banned from player use.  I have only 1 predefined unit, the Unity Lifter, a Copter with a Transport module.  No weapon mounted.  I also tried limiting Copter movement for awhile, but it was super boring, having these super slow moving units.  So I got rid of the thing entirely, except for the 1 predefined special that doesn't attack.

Quote
If you want a conventional military unit to ignore ZOC rules, the game designers clearly intended to give you that option: use a Cloaking Device.

This is not a "single unit per square" game.  You can move stacks of units around.  You can combine or break apart stacks at will, any time you want.  You can make any combo of legal moves you want on your turn.  This is like Wargaming 101 and I don't see how you figure it's otherwise.  You might personally want to design something else, but the rules of the game are as they are, not what you want them to be.  This game does not simulate logistical "traffic jams", where a column of units can't pass on a road because they don't have room to get by.  The game muddles the tactical, operational, and strategic scales, so there is no particular simulation basis for insisting on any particular concept of ZOC, stacking limits, or movement order.  It's a "free movement system" and if you don't like such systems, that's merely your problem.

You're free to design a game with a different movement system, and try to get people to adopt it, or sell your game, whatever.

When I finally write a new 4X TBS, it's not going to have the "all offense vs. all defense" combat mechanic.  Offense and defense factors are going to slug at each other simultaneously.  Combats aren't going to be to the death either, they're going to be resolved over a bounded period of time.  Standoffs and mutual bloodlettings will be expected.  There aren't going to be any Armors that just bounce the incoming Laser fire and cause planes to magically fall out of the sky.  There are going to be helpless troops on the ground getting strafed and taking damage, not really able to do anything about their assailants.

The point is that's my simulation "pet peeve" about the game's combat system.  I don't confuse it for being an exploit.  It would be like complaining, "The Queen is too powerful in Chess!  Look how much it can move around!"  It's bloody Chess.  Play the game or not.

Quote
The AI certainly doesn't know how to abuse Probe ZOC like you the player does.

This is true.  That's merely a problem with the AI implementation, not the rules.  The AI is stupid about countlessly many things, like the pathfinding for Formers screwing up, when it doesn't screw up military unit pathfinding.  Providing better AI, is a serious commercial development sustainability question.

Quote
The idea of James Bond successfully shepherding a tank division through enemy lines is laughable,

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that an empty square is tremendously secure.  If you want it to be super secure, then fill it.  Same as you'd have to do for sea or air combat.  If your "line" is like Swiss Cheese then yes, James Bond can most certainly lead the way and show you how to get from A to B.

Quote
But it's an exploit.

It's a flaw in your mental model of what ZOC means, from a game design standpoint.  Plenty of articles have appeared in "various places" about ZOC systems.  The whole thing arises historically from wargames with limited hex resolution, trying to model the phenomenon of a military unit controlling more than "just their own hex".  Well there's actually no good reason to do that anyways, they probably just wanted to save some money on cardboard counters.  Probably also on art assets for a given map scale, since a physical playing board was something you had to ship to your customers.  They didn't have computers to zoom the map scale up and down to whatever might be desired.  If you have enough units and enough hexes, you don't need a ZOC system.  Square's occupied?  Guess you're not going there.

The game does feature the obvious alternative, in sea and air combat.  Which proves that the designers weren't ideologically committed to some particular notion of ZOC, the way you seem to be.

Why don't you try going back to Civ II or even Civ I and see if you can't do exactly the same things with spies and ZOC?  It's not like SMAC was the 1st cut at these game design mechanics.  If they didn't redesign them, then they didn't think it was some big humongous problem.  You do, and that's your problem.  The rest of us are playing an IGOUGO game with known rules of how everything works.

Defending with an AAA Garrison isn't an exploit either, it's how the game works.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 07:36:05 PM by bvanevery »

Offline EmpathCrawler

Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2020, 07:53:17 PM »
It's a bug.  It's ridiculous on its face.  They didn't do all this separation of MORALE facilities for conventional units, and Lifecyle facilities for indigenous life forms, just for the lolz.  Nevermind obvious differences in the social engineering effects of MORALE and PLANET.  Mindworms parent larvae.  Yes there might be a human mindworm handler involved, but it's not a whole squad of them.  You can't make a mindworm have higher Morale from a Command Center, and it's the Biology Lab that heals a mindworm in 1 turn, not a Command Center.  I just read that in the .PDF of the game manual, not like I knew that off the top of my head.  But it makes perfect sense and is rational.  There are parallel facilities for humans and mindworms.  Bioenhancement Center is what it is because it benefits both tracks instead of just one.  The Children's Creche is not supposed to benefit mindworms.  There is no simulation or narrative justification for this at all.

Brood trainers have families, too, I suppose.

As for the rest of that post, I've given you my final words on the matter and already consider the discussion at an end.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 08:12:30 PM by EmpathCrawler »

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2020, 08:22:08 PM »
All I can say to that is to reiterate: go look at all the possible ZOC systems out there, before assuming that the one you want, is the one SMAC does.

IGOUGO systems allow players to bring all available force to bear on their turn.  That's fundamental to the concept.  Of course players can do lots of damage to each other on their turn, in all kinds of unit combining ways.  If you don't like that, consider an "activation system", where the number of units you can use on your turn is limited.  Or a "phased turn system", where it's not IGOUGO, and defending units attack as you try to pass them.  SMAC uses a simple system, that's one of its advantages.


Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2020, 08:28:29 PM »
The point of psi combat is to be a "hole" in the combat system and be strong on the offense. Mind worms are still expensive and stacking lifecycle bonuses requires a lot of additional expense that doesn't help with a conventional military aside from one? exception.

I would rephrase it to be an alternative combat system to increase combat variety and survivability of different factions. Like if one faction is quite behind in weaponry but has PLANET bonus (or crank it up) they can withstand massive conventional firepower turning it to psi combat. A very nice idea of different warfare types.
That is in theory, of course. Stupid AI and smart ass humans, as always, can screw up any brilliant game designers' idea. So it may need further balancing. However, I would not discard it right away. Native life is a cornerstone of the whole story! 🙂

Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2020, 08:38:22 PM »
Oh wow get this.  I just actually looked at the details of my own screenshot.  An Elite bonus is +50%.  A Demon Boil bonus isn't equal to that, it's actually +75% !!!

That is weird. How did that happen? Did you mod anything? Can you share your save and alphax.txt?


Independent Demon Boil vs Elite, boil attacking from base tile, no facilities: https://i.imgur.com/t3wyoYB.png

The same, attacking from base with Children's Creche: https://i.imgur.com/GucCAl7.png

The same, attacking from base with Children's Creche and Brood Pit: https://i.imgur.com/071mVti.png


Thank you for these examples, man. Apparently, there is a bug in CC or BP those allow natives have more than 50% lifecycle bonus. Need investigation.

Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2020, 08:57:23 PM »
Indeed. Both CC and BP add to morale bonus without limiting it. That's definitely a bug.

Offline EmpathCrawler

Re: mindworms bypass Perimeter Defense
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2020, 09:56:47 PM »

I would rephrase it to be an alternative combat system to increase combat variety and survivability of different factions. Like if one faction is quite behind in weaponry but has PLANET bonus (or crank it up) they can withstand massive conventional firepower turning it to psi combat. A very nice idea of different warfare types.
That is in theory, of course. Stupid AI and smart ass humans, as always, can screw up any brilliant game designers' idea. So it may need further balancing. However, I would not discard it right away. Native life is a cornerstone of the whole story! 🙂


Sure, and Planet needs to be some kind of threat from the early game up until fungal pops. It's nice that Thinker knows to mix in some psi units when they have positive PLANET. I wonder if they know, or should know, to build Biology Labs and other facilities if they like PLANET?



Indeed. Both CC and BP add to morale bonus without limiting it. That's definitely a bug.


Scient said that they were aware but forgot to implement the bug fix in the patch: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21522.0

 

* User

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


Login with username, password and session length

Select language:

* Community poll

SMAC v.4 SMAX v.2 (or previous versions)
-=-
24 (7%)
XP Compatibility patch
-=-
9 (2%)
Gog version for Windows
-=-
103 (32%)
Scient (unofficial) patch
-=-
40 (12%)
Kyrub's latest patch
-=-
14 (4%)
Yitzi's latest patch
-=-
89 (28%)
AC for Mac
-=-
3 (0%)
AC for Linux
-=-
6 (1%)
Gog version for Mac
-=-
10 (3%)
No patch
-=-
16 (5%)
Total Members Voted: 314
AC2 Wiki Logo
-click pic for wik-

* Random quote

Of all the employments, working in the the brood pit was at once the most horrific and the most desirable. Horrific for what we saw occur day after day, and because of the very nature of the sessile native lifeforms. Desirable, because having been chosen to work in the pit, you were highly unlikely to be one of its victims.
~Captain Ulrik Svensgaard 'The Shadow Resonance'

* Select your theme

*
Templates: 5: index (default), PortaMx/Mainindex (default), PortaMx/Frames (default), Display (default), GenericControls (default).
Sub templates: 8: init, html_above, body_above, portamx_above, main, portamx_below, body_below, html_below.
Language files: 4: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 45 - 1228KB. (show)
Queries used: 37.

[Show Queries]