Making Native Life Threatening

[Nexii]

One thing that always bothered me about the stock game was how the native life wasn't really all that threatening compared to how it's described in the lore. Or compared to the barbarians in most Civilization games. It was slow, predictable, and even gave you lots of energy for killing. Pretty much just free money from planetpearls once you get a speeder or two.

Lately I've been playing with Mind Worms at Speed 2, which can be done by giving them the Speeder chassis. Likewise for Isles and Sealurks with the Cruiser chassis. I also changed PSI combat to be 3:2 in all scenarios (land, sea, or air defender).

Mind Worms,             Speeder,  Psi,          Psi,        1, 4, 0, CentEmp,  3, 00000000000000000000000000
Isle of the Deep,       Cruiser,  Psi,          Psi,        7, 6, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Sealurk,                Cruiser,  Psi,          Psi,        6, 4, 0, CentPsi,  4, 00000000000000000001000000

For a small change it really does change the game quite a bit. New bases really need sensors since mind worms can travel so far through fungus, 6 tiles a turn. It's also much harder to hit them first with Rovers.

I also put alien life to have +3 PLANET, which is a bit brutal. Mostly so it could still threaten bases which I have at 50% defense to be equal with rough terrain and bunkers. Granted that might not make the game too much harder since the AI doesn't like to make Trance sentinels

[bvanevery]

Threatening but still fair is a big design challenge.  I don't think having mindworms attack from nowhere, that you can't even see or react to, is particularly fair.  It's already a problem in the stock game and my mod, and it's already dangerous.  The basic defensive measure is not to build one's bases next to fungus.  Sometimes however you're shafted by the RNG in the early game and you have no choice.

Having the mindworms go 6 squares not just 3, assuming they have fungus to move on, makes an existing difficulty even worse.  Doesn't sound like my personal idea of a good time.  Especially, when you or someone else pops a pod out in the hinterland, and releases 8 mindworms at once.  If you pop them, at least you know they're coming, although I don't appreciate the 2x speed idea.  If someone else does, you likely have no idea.  Some turn you're just suddenly hit by 8 mindworms and spore launchers.

Generally in games and in film, there's a difference between shock and suspense.  In the words of Alfred Hitchcock, shock is a bomb going off.  Suspense is a bomb ticking under the table.

What you have implemented here, is shock.  The problem with shock in gaming, is it's typically not fair.  The player has no time to react, no way of knowing they're supposed to react.  The monster jumps out from behind the wall and summarily kills you.  That's shock.

Civ IV did a good job of letting you know the highly superior Barbarian Horde was coming.  Ok, maybe the 1st game you play, it's a bit of a shock to see just how well they take you apart when they get to you.  But the game does let you know they're coming the whole time, and that's suspense.  You have several turns to prepare.  You can react.

[lolada]

1. For native life to be threatening it needs to have a real chance to kill the base defender. If defense is easy then whats the point.
- Early worms are hatchlings (- morale) and later player is prepared. Maybe if base worms were at 0% morale and later versions significantly upgraded they would be more threatening. They do upgrade as far as i know, but probably too slowly.
Sensors are likely two powerful - 25% bonus is a lot and its quick to build. Worms cannot spawn on tiles next to sensors?! Once player populates continent worms are quite rare.

It would be fun if remove fungus would have 50% chance to spawn worms. Forests replacing fungus to spawn worms  . Forests are  op in that way - if they would not spread to fungus tiles worm might be more dangerous longer.

2. Other issue i have with mindworms is attackers advantage, with 3:2 odds its no brainer to attack and kill native mindworms. They are slow as you rightly recognized.

- One idea would be to make attacking worms in fungus very risky.. ie. losing odds.  That would mean base next to fungus would be forced to defend and then worm would have 3:2 advantage.
100% defense for worm in fungus... turning the odds 3:4 where attacker loses.. two should get rid of the worm. Empath unit could kill the worm in fungus.

3. PSI combat could be changed from 3:2 for attacker to something more equal - thats what will to power mod did. It has some ups and downs.

I am not sure i like giving so much movement to worms ^^ it certainly is a shock.

[bvanevery]

Early defense isn't easy with a stock binary if you do nothing.  You get a grace period at the beginning of the game where mindworms can't do anything to you, and that's how it should be.  Both for the human player's frustration, and the AI's viability.  Then the mindworms get stronger.  If you haven't started making units at Command Centers, or building Sensor Arrays, those mindworms are going to kill your people in the bases!  One thing that is different in my mod, is you do not have ready access to Hypnotic Trance, it takes a bit of Explore research to get.  It also has cost 1, it's not a free addition to a unit.  Also nowadays, you can't make a Cost 10 Trance Scout anymore.  It will cost you 30, same as a Trance Synthmetal Sentinel.

I don't even know what people are complaining about exactly.  It can't be the early game mindworm base defense mechanics, as from where I sit, they're just fine.

Sensors are likely two powerful - 25% bonus is a lot and its quick to build.

You're gonna love my mod then.     I jacked that bonus to +50%.  It's completely wrong to focus on Sensor Arrays as an anti-mindworm total player benefit thing.  This is for the AI.  It stops human players and enemy AI factions from easily overrunning bases.  Bases have real defense in my mod, and that's important.  You want more units to die in combat, how about because defenses are actually worth something and can actually kill you, instead of being this big game of overpowered Chaos gun walk-ins.  My Chaos guns also cost a fortune, you're not going to want them unless you've got Fusion Power.  But I digress.  You can't single out some combat mechanic as being only about mindworms.

+50% Sensor Array was actually Tim's idea originally.  But I'm the one who implemented it.  Playtested it to its logical conclusion.  I also don't give any special Infantry bonus for attacking bases.  I think that was probably another of Tim's ideas.

It would be fun if remove fungus would have 50% chance to spawn worms.

FFS why.  Mindworms already show up when I'm removing fungus.  You're trying to get something done, then all of a sudden you've got a mindworm.  And you're out of units that can deal with it, because you were already moving everything during your turn, just trying to get your unit pushing done.  I just don't get people who want mindworms to be a complete PITA.  And such a mindworm isn't threatening, it's a PITA.  It's gonna kill one of your Formers, neener neener neener, you'll have to go make another one or do without.  When 8 mindworms pop near a base, that's threatening.

2. Other issue i have with mindworms is attackers advantage, with 3:2 odds its no brainer to attack and kill native mindworms.

Tim and I have argued about this at length, and AFAIAC I'm still the one who's right.     Changing this around, merely changes whether it's better to attack or defend.  It doesn't solve any problem as far as collecting planet pearls.  I think Tim finally solved planet pearls by eliminating them.  He really really hates planet pearls.  I'm meh, I think supply pods are worth way more money than planet pearls usually.

One idea would be to make attacking worms in fungus very risky.. ie. losing odds.

I actually thought this was true for a long time!  Only by having the odds calculator on all the time, and studying the devil in the details, did I finally understand that sitting on top of fungus gives a mindworm attacking you an advantage.

Empath unit could kill the worm in fungus.

Why even allow Empath Song in the game?  It's cognitive dissonance to want mindworms to be more threatening, and yet provide such a powerful antidote to them.  I never make Empath units anymore.  I've occasionally made R-Laser units, but I'm meh about them.  I believe Tim took those out of Will To Power.  My standard issue unit for attacking Mindworms is a Scout.  Riding around on rails that my huge fleet of Formers made.

[EmpathCrawler]

Speeder worms, that's interesting. I always play on abundant native life and still don't feel like it's enough. It's a lot of fun to get flatfooted by a bunch of worms early on and have to come back from that, though the AI's not so great at dealing with them. I like to think of Planet as the 8th faction. I want to fight it or cooperate with it.


How did you give worms a PLANET rating? EXE hacking?

[Nexii]

The goal is two-fold. To make planetpearls 'earned' rather than given, and to make native life viable for inter-faction warfare. In the base game neither are the case. Native life should be looked at like calamities from Advanced Civilization, something to overcome. Only they were like... mini calamities rather than real ones.

Ideally mindworms could be slow at the start, rover speed by early-mid game, and hovertank speed later in the game. Infantry stay viable all game because they get abilities like drop, plus extra moves from Elite where native life doesn't get any speed or abilities. It's an issue of scaling really. So there is two options: make native life slow, and cheap. Or make it faster and more expensive. I favor faster, this way it's more of an open-ground unit that beats rovers around fungus but can't conquer bases well and also is countered by air. And it also becomes the best unit for exploring to pop pods, which could be argued as a primary function.

3:2 feels about right. 1:1 you might as well remove native life from the game because it won't even be able to kill a former or colony pod.

Yitzi's patch allows you to give alien life a PLANET rating in alphax.txt. Also you can enable PLANET to apply to defense and not just offense (which I prefer to have on). I've been trying out alien life at +3 PLANET for a challenge. Though it hinders the AI probably more than the human player... it loves to leave empty bases in the very early game to go for pods

[Nexii]

I will say I did a bit of a double take the first time I saw a mind worm disengage from combat. It's kind of rare though usually the AI uses all its moves.

[bvanevery]

and to make native life viable for inter-faction warfare.

I don't understand what this means, or is meant to imply.  AI factions in my mod use mindworms regularly to clobber each other.  The AI has no problem spewing them out.  I've even had the AI thwart me with mindworm spam when I did a cross-Planet orbital insert, if I didn't bring enough forces in to hold my position.

My main criticism of AI mindworm tactics, is it doesn't seem to know to build Biology Labs and Centauri Preserves to make them more dangerous coming out of the factory.  A fair amount of the time, the AI is not building Command Centers to train regular units either.

Ideally mindworms could be slow at the start, rover speed by early-mid game, and hovertank speed later in the game.

Teach the AI how to build rails for conquest.  You can conquer anything with rails.  Hovertank Formers are how you lay rails over fungus.  In my mod you must have Advanced Ecological Engineering to build in fungus, not Centauri Psi.

[vonbach]

The modified mind worms make them much more entertaining to play with.

[Nexii]

Definitely much stronger, I had to increase their cost back to the default of 5 rows. Had them cheaper when they were slow. Also have to consider how to rebalance it in general... may have to turn off PLANET affecting the defender. The idea was to help PSI units on defense, but now it just makes them smash everything. Maybe PSI units should require standard units for better defensive chances.

[vonbach]

All I did was change the units. So the mindworms aren't that op just much faster and more useful.

[Nexii]

Yea I think they're fine with PLANET not affecting defense. The only reason PSI units ever needed better defense to begin with was because they were slow and always got attacked first.

What was happening was I was at +4 PLANET, defender at -3 PLANET. Making for a massive 70% difference, thats like Elite vs Very Green. Now it's more reasonable.