Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Command Nexus => Topic started by: Green1 on July 23, 2013, 05:16:31 AM

Title: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 23, 2013, 05:16:31 AM

A quick question for folks who have been around MP for longer than I have since I am mostly a sandbox SP guy with my 4xs.

Is it possible to do MP with custom factions? Not talking balance issues. Just talking possibilities.

If so, what needs to be in place or any issues I need to know about before this happening?

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: sisko on July 23, 2013, 07:27:36 AM

it is feasable. of course, the faction graphics bug will strike you at some point, but that is to be expected for any SMAX game..

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 23, 2013, 08:41:25 AM

Thanks.

With LMS, I am currently experiencing that bug. Some folks have told me to use iniswap, but I have yet to try that out.

For the reason I am asking this question, that bug would need to not be there. It has to look cool for screen shots.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: sisko on July 23, 2013, 08:45:26 AM

Quote

Some folks have told me to use iniswap, but I have yet to try that out.

i see you have 2 MP games plus the AAR so you should try it. the 'how-to' is stickied in this forum.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 23, 2013, 07:52:51 PM

Quote from: Green1 on July 23, 2013, 08:41:25 AM

With LMS, I am currently experiencing that bug. Some folks have told me to use iniswap, but I have yet to try that out.

It's simple to use, you just have to get used to launch the game through the iniswap file not the alphax. Usually you need also to add the factions by hand to alpha.ini. As long as you provide all the graphic files for your factions, I'm sure it will work.

I've got one minor issue to report to mart, namely in one game (LMS) my Spartan units have completely black flags, i.e. without order shortcuts. I think I saw it before when screwing around with alpha.ini, but now I can't recall the problem (there's no typo in the relevant player line). So you may want to double-check everything, but it's really a petty thing. I hate the graphic bug much more (and it can even affect your gameplay when you panic that you've just sent an in-game message to a wrong perso n;) ).

Quote

For the reason I am asking this question, that bug would need to not be there. It has to look cool for screen shots.

You plan to AAR a multiplayer game? I think I've never seen it before, might be a good idea (although if it was me, I'd like to keep diplomatic details secret). I like your recent AAR, good read.  ;b;

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 02:07:01 AM

Not sure.

I think Kilk and Jarlwolf had hinted that a human player would have handled Oblivion's situation (start next to Antimind) and the Comrade's situation (between Miriam, Borg, and Lawyers which are hostile plus a lot of fungus) better. I tend to agree. All those situations are rough, but an experienced player can somewhat cope.

Then again, these MP games develop over literally MONTHS and would be hard to coordinate.

If it was to happen, it would have to be a cooperative AAR against powerful AIs Antimind level or better. I think that would be the best way to do it in my opinion.

Still, something to ponder...

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 24, 2013, 02:14:33 AM

t_ras tried to do something like this - tough to get enough people committed enough, and mighty complicated way to do it even if you can...

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 02:45:58 AM

AI factions would have to be really strong if a cooperative MP is to make a good show. How does the Antimind behave? I noticed you run into it, but I didn't have time to catch up yet.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 02:48:06 AM

Quote from: BUncle on July 24, 2013, 02:14:33 AM

t_ras tried to do something like this - tough to get enough people committed enough, and mighty complicated way to do it even if you can...

I tend to agree. I probably would not touch it unless something convinced me otherwise. You would almost have to have it over IP instead of PBEM and then small map and getting folks all at the same time. My head hurts...

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 02:49:10 AM

Quote from: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 02:45:58 AM

AI factions would have to be really strong if a cooperative MP is to make a good show. How does the Antimind behave? I noticed you run into it, but I didn't have time to catch up yet.

Insane + PLANET. INDUSTY penalty, bonus to PSI. I will get the complete .txt in a sec.

EDIT: this is on top of being Prog.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 02:52:34 AM

^LEADER: {AntiMind}
^BACKGROUND: {Mindworm/Progenitor Cyborg Hybrid}
^AGENDA: {Mindworm Freedom}
^TECH: {Centauri Ecology}
^

#DATALINKS2
^+4 PLANET: {Able to tap into Planetmind's neural net to capture mindworms}
^-3 INDUSTRY: {AntiMind experiences pain when pollution enters its "body"}
^-2 GROWTH: {Human slaves are restricted from reproducing to maintain worm majority}
^Free Ability: {Hypnotic Trance: Can turn psi powers against user}
^+2 Nutrients and Energy in fungus squares
^Immune to PLANET penalties
^Receives free Mindworm unit at start
^{May not use Free Market economics.}

Bonus to PSI is not listed.

has an Industry penalty, but this does not seem to affect native unit production.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 03:09:09 AM

Thanks for the info. What are your thoughts upon your encounter with Antimind in this AAR you're currently doing? This list is quite impressive, but even then, IND and GROWTH penalties hurt (and this does affect the production of NL).

I'd love to play with the Antimind on the map myself, but can't seem to find enough time for a single player game these days. Still, this faction shouldn't be a longer problem for an experienced player unless you make your planetfall on the top of it. All the tricks you can put into a native life faction are somewhat mitigated by the fact that a scout patrol with hypnotic trance costs one row of minerals.

Of course such a faction makes a lot of captures, but there is a certain limit to captured units, as in your chances dramatically decrease after a certain number (several tens) of NL units you own. Kyrub found it when tinkering with the exe.

Bonuses to nuts and energy in fungus look cool (what is the total output at PLANET 4 then?), but mineral output still sucks.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 04:46:41 AM

Pretty rough.  Tends to travel long distances on large maps. Gets lots of captures. Even with mineral costs, tends to get LOTS of units.

Going Green versus it is a necessity. Free Market would be suicide. I would dare say Power as well.

Techs okay, but it is no Zak. Will quickly overwhelm without air power. Unlike the times against Planet Cult, air power is no guarantee it is over. Highly aggressive.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: JarlWolf on July 24, 2013, 04:55:18 AM

We could always fight Scots Noobs.

That stuff is so overpowered it makes a nuclear power plant look like a half used Double A battery.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Yitzi on July 24, 2013, 06:31:05 AM

Quote from: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 02:52:34 AM

has an Industry penalty, but this does not seem to affect native unit production.

I'm pretty sure it does (at least for built rather than recruited worms); there's simply no way I can see that it wouldn't.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: JarlWolf on July 24, 2013, 06:35:39 AM

The Anti-Mind probably recruits worms rapidly is why it gets so many. Plus it having 2+ energy and nutrients probably helps it rapidly garner credits to rush units.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 01:45:46 PM

Quote from: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 04:46:41 AM

Pretty rough.  Tends to travel long distances on large maps. Gets lots of captures. Even with mineral costs, tends to get LOTS of units.

Going Green versus it is a necessity. Free Market would be suicide. I would dare say Power as well.

Techs okay, but it is no Zak. Will quickly overwhelm without air power. Unlike the times against Planet Cult, air power is no guarantee it is over. Highly aggressive.

I'm not sure if I'd use air power, at least not against NL. Jets fight at 1:1, scout patrol attacks at 3:2, which effectively negates that hypnotic trance thingy. High speed is a good point tho, it may force you to a defensive mode.

I wonder what SE choices I would make. FM/Wealth is my standard as early as reasonable, obviously at a disadvantage here. Still may be worth it to run this combo and just crank out hordes of scouts. Highly depends on topography.

Also, the Antimind is very prone to losing the race to Neural Amplifier and Dream Twister, which mitigates its two biggest bonuses.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 01:49:22 PM

Quote from: JarlWolf on July 24, 2013, 06:35:39 AM

The Anti-Mind probably recruits worms rapidly is why it gets so many. Plus it having 2+ energy and nutrients probably helps it rapidly garner credits to rush units.

It still needs to forest and mine minerals (only the very last turns of unit production are worth rushing). And as Yitzi agrees, the costs of NL remain the same. Maybe free Brood Pits, Cha Dawn style, would help to alleviate this problem a bit.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Yitzi on July 24, 2013, 03:51:01 PM

Quote from: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 01:49:22 PM

It still needs to forest and mine minerals (only the very last turns of unit production are worth rushing). And as Yitzi agrees, the costs of NL remain the same. Maybe free Brood Pits, Cha Dawn style, would help to alleviate this problem a bit.

Are we seriously discussing how to make Antimind more powerful?

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 04:10:55 PM

Well, I'm not saying the Antimind is weaker than other factions, but the range of situations when it can pose any real threat to a human player is still quite narrow. I was under impression we were talking about a coop MP game here. 2 allied players vs. 5 Antiminds would probably have a rough moment or two (depends if they can contact before meeting in-game), but I still would bet my money on SMACers. To kill a human, you need to give the AI much bigger guns.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 24, 2013, 09:52:10 PM

Off topic for this thread, but all the talk this week about overkill custom factions has me thinking that I'd like to see Earthmichael try an SP against the Scotsn00bs - I'm curious to see if he thinks they're as unbeatable as Name claims.

If he's finds them only ALMOST unbeatable, there's a scenario competition idea there, in the same spirit as the old One City Challenges.  How 'bout it, EM?

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 10:23:03 PM

What is this faction, BU?

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 10:29:35 PM

Quote from: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 04:10:55 PM

Well, I'm not saying the Antimind is weaker than other factions, but the range of situations when it can pose any real threat to a human player is still quite narrow. I was under impression we were talking about a coop MP game here. 2 allied players vs. 5 Antiminds would probably have a rough moment or two (depends if they can contact before meeting in-game), but I still would bet my money on SMACers. To kill a human, you need to give the AI much bigger guns.

5 Antiminds would all be permanently at war with each other, so it kind of balances out. In the (unfortunately) unfinished AAR3: Lal Must Suffer, I put 2 caretakers and 2 usurpers in because I thought the 2 of each type would be on the same side and make Lal suffer. But, all 4 were weakened because they were too busy beating the snot out of each other.

I say, as is, the Antimind IS a real threat to a human player. Particularly on abundant life form maps! I may not be on Earthmicheal level (though I am in one MP game with him and will probably find out what EM level is :) ), but it gives me a challenge. Even Ete says they are bad boys. I think the faction is perfectly balanced. Not Scotsnoobs but about what an Alien faction should be. Tough, but NOT unbeatable.

Now could Antimind handle 2-3 players? I am not sure.

If I was a noobie, I would not want them in my first game, though. But then again, we are all playing Thinker to Transcend level. A lower difficulty Antimind may be a little less terrifying.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on July 24, 2013, 10:31:47 PM

Quote from: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 10:23:03 PM

What is this faction, BU?

It is in the DL section.

I believe he made it back on another board in response for a request for a "god mode" faction.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 24, 2013, 11:09:49 PM

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=98 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=98)

I was more directly involved in the creation of the SupahNewbs - though vyeh did all the work as far as stats, and Metaliturtle, who was the beginner who'd wanted a godmode for SMAC(X) in the first place, came up with most of the jokes/personality.  Russia4Life subsequently posted something he claimed was a lot more ridiculously overkill.  RMcD and I picked it up and fleshed it out about a year later - and about a year after that, Imagine a Cool Name did some playtesting of both, and reported that the Supahs, by comparison, were "like taking a pencil eraser to a nuclear weapons fight. Where the SupahNewbs are the pencil eraser. "

If anyone's curious, here's the thread:
http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?538-I-want-to-godmod-SMAC (http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?538-I-want-to-godmod-SMAC)
His playtesting is on the last two pages.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 24, 2013, 11:46:41 PM

Quote from: BUncle on July 24, 2013, 11:09:49 PM

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=98 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=98)

Hm, in that archive is but a lone PCX file. Where I can find the other ones? It takes several files to properly load a faction, doesn't it?

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 24, 2013, 11:55:56 PM

WHAT?  AAAARGH!  Hold on, and I'll fix this.

Okay - try it again at the same address.  It should have the .txt included now.

I HATE when it turns out I've posted a bum file - and 50+ downloads before I find out.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 25, 2013, 08:39:29 PM

LOL, I started a game against 6 scots just for the hell of it and no, it is a bit too much. Nukes start to fly in the 20s, first attempts at cornering the market begin in the 40s, thwarted only by nukes straight to HQs... Although I noticed that Scot have techshare 2, which accounts for why they do transcendent thought somewhere in the 50-60s. Anyway, at that time regular factions are still ridicously weak, so I can't see how you can stop an AI from cornering when you just commission you first foil.

There are ways to deal with OP AI in scenarios, like for example deliberately emptying your bases for their air drop, then tech raping and buying the base back... But Scots start with fabulous wealth and quickly get loads of piss-poor techs, so basically you steal Doc:Loyalty and then you die anyway. :)

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 25, 2013, 08:42:15 PM

From what I'm told, you only need one of the scots for that...

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 25, 2013, 08:47:40 PM

I think it's actually easier with several as they keep each other in check. Of course, once one of them decides to come, it's over. Fortunately they praise my FM... :) I'll give a single one a try, it's fun.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 25, 2013, 10:20:20 PM

There is a bugged behaviour of Scots, meaning once they get the tech, they try to corner the market every turn, thus restarting the counter indefinitely. I guess the AI checks every turn if it can afford it and if yes, it does so. Not that it matters, though - they transcend in 2141. At least I had the opportunity to read those storyline sheets you get when some other faction trancends. It turns out, the Planet benevolently reaches out to you and send you back to Earth. Sounds like a sequel seed to me. ;b; :)

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 25, 2013, 10:25:40 PM

I wonder if that's a faction bug.  Shouldn't be able to create that sort of problem with the faction file.

I just gave scient a heads-up.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kirov on July 25, 2013, 10:36:56 PM

My guess is that is what happens when you give AI loads of cash. It simply checks for the price of cornering and then attempts it, without checking if it already did so one turn earlier. In regular games, you could never afford several cornering attempts one after another, you're always broke after the first one. So the programmers didn't bother. But of course it's only a guess.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Kilkakon on August 01, 2013, 01:54:52 AM

I would like to try an online LE game one day. :)

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 01, 2013, 02:11:36 AM

I don't know if these guys are man enough for the challenge...  ;)

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on August 02, 2013, 11:41:00 AM

I had to think for a second, though. I do remember ONE MP game for a mod. A Civ 4 mod.  Maniac managed to get a MP game of Planetfall on CFC a few years back... other than that, zillch.

Unless mods were used back in the day in some clans to mix things up. Stuff like that would not be public knowledge.

But, god, I hate RTS and 4x clans.....

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: JarlWolf on August 02, 2013, 03:53:42 PM

I find clans in general are laughable. Making a group of people, gamers at that, run themselves like a corporation with nerd hierarchies does not work.

Note: Never joined a clan, never will. I believe in community, not ass licking.

Title: Re: Alpha Centauri, MP, and custom factions
Post by: Green1 on August 03, 2013, 10:51:15 AM

Quote from: JarlWolf on August 02, 2013, 03:53:42 PM

I find clans in general are laughable. Making a group of people, gamers at that, run themselves like a corporation with nerd hierarchies does not work.

Note: Never joined a clan, never will. I believe in community, not ass licking.

Indeed. Some of the MMO ones were not as bad, but those are the ones that just got a guild so you could have great chat and really do not care about rules/ progression/ whatever as long as folks are not being jerks. Then again, I did have to share that chat log with you guys on AC2 about this "serious" corp guy on Eve Online that went totally ape [poop] a while back. Wow.

The thing about 4X, RTS, and FPS clans is, unlike an MMO where there is progression and gear which is at least something to aspire to, you have a win/loss record that is permanent depending on where it is played. This means if you were learning you can be blackballed. Lord forbid you want to play a game with a friend who is not as experienced as you for fun.. it could mess your record up and get you booted!

However, as a community, we probably should try out an all custom faction or mod game. Hell, if we AARed it, it would drum up more fresh meat for Earthmicheal to eat in the Command Nexus.