Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Bug/Patch Discussion => Topic started by: Earthmichael on March 18, 2013, 03:21:39 PM

Title: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on March 18, 2013, 03:21:39 PM

Once of my frustrations with SMAC that I would like to see if it could be address in a patch, or in not, if Dale can keep it in mind for SMAC2, is that the state of your empire at the end of your turn should be used for purposes of checking drone riots and/or ecodamage.

What this simply means is that drone riot checks should be done FIRST, before population growth or industry builds.  Similarly, ecodamage checks should be done FIRST, before population growth or industry builds.  Or better yet, the checks should be done at the END of the current turn, instead of at the BEGINNING of the next turn.

This way, when you check your cities before ending your turn, and none are flagged for drone riots, you are done, instead of tediously checking each city to see if it will grow, and to see if a build might cause a drone riot.  This kind of boring micromanagment hurts the game; the citizen overview of your cities ought to be sufficient to check.

Similarly, if each of your cities show 0 ecodamage, you should not have to guess how much ecodamage is going to be caused by completing a genejack factory, and guess as to whether some workers or crawlers should be reassigned.  You can get the 0 ecodamage shown for that turn, and deal with fixing up for the factory on the turn after the factory is built, where the ecodamage is actually displayed, instead of trying to guess ahead of time as to what the future will bring, and being invaded by hordes of mind worms if you guess wrong.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: testdummy653 on March 18, 2013, 05:17:09 PM

Quote from: Earthmichael on March 18, 2013, 03:21:39 PM

you should not have to guess how much ecodamage is going to be caused by completing a genejack factory, and guess as to whether some workers or crawlers should be reassigned.

Please someone fix this.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Lord Avalon on March 19, 2013, 10:53:25 PM

Quote from: Earthmichael on March 18, 2013, 03:21:39 PM

What this simply means is that drone riot checks should be done FIRST, before population growth or industry builds.  Similarly, ecodamage checks should be done FIRST, before population growth or industry builds.  Or better yet, the checks should be done at the END of the current turn, instead of at the BEGINNING of the next turn.

Earthmichael, I think I understand what you meant, but I think your language is imprecise.

If start-of-turn checks for drone riots occur before pop growth checks, then there's a turn delay in occurrence of the drone riot.  But you still wouldn't get any warning.

I think you want an end-of-turn pop growth check to be done first, but it's a next-turn pop growth check, then the end-of-turn drone riot check will show if a drone riot will occur next turn.  Similarly with ecodamage:  check for next-turn min increase, then check for ecodamage.   So after all your units are done moving, I guess those checks could be initiated by opening the Base Operations Status screen - and maybe there'd be a delay in getting to the screen while checks are run.


I wonder if it is possible to store values for such end-of-turn looking-forward checks.  If not, it seems to me the game would be checking twice:  an end-of-turn check for next-turn pop growth then determining drone riot warning, then again at beginning of turn for this-turn pop growth and implementation of such and this-turn drone riot.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on March 20, 2013, 02:58:01 AM

Quote from: Lord Avalon on March 19, 2013, 10:53:25 PM

Earthmichael, I think I understand what you meant, but I think your language is imprecise.

If start-of-turn checks for drone riots occur before pop growth checks, then there's a turn delay in occurrence of the drone riot.  But you still wouldn't get any warning.

Sure, I get plenty of warning.  I open the base operation status (as I do at the end of each of my turns before I hit end turn); if any of the cities are red, I take measures to correct the potential riot situation before I hit end turn.

I am not sure what you think is imprecise.  If at the end of my turn, I check my city population status, and it shows no cities at risk for rioting (red), then what I want is for there to be: no riots when I BEGIN next turn. 

After I start the next turn, there may be some cities now at risk for rioting, but they are not CURRENTLY rioting, and I have all turn to do whatever I need to remedy the at risk condition.

Similarly, for ecodamage, if I check all of my cities at the end of my turn, and all of them have zero ecodamage, then I want the next turn to begin with ZERO ecodamage added to the cumulate Planet total.  After industry builds and population growth (next turn), my cities may now show substantial ecodamage, but I get all turn to take measures to reduce or eliminate the ecodamage before the end of turn.

The current situation is that I check at the end of turn, and I see no cities at risk of rioting.  But I begin next turn, and I can have several cities currently rioting, because the between turn population growth occured before the drone riot check, and now they riot.  Or I complete a Genejack factory, creating an extra drone, and now they riot.  Same for ecodamage.  With the current situation, I can check every city and have zero ecodamage.  Then at the beginning of the next turn, Planet goes berzerk and sends half a dozen swarms of mind worms with 20 worms in each swarm because the builds are done BEFORE ecodamage is checked at the beginning of the turn.  So if I build a factory that boosts minerals, I am slammed with the ecodamage effect before I am even shown how much the ecodamage the factory was going to cause.

So the simple solution in both cases is to do drone riots and ecodamage checks at the beginning of the turn BEFORE any industry builds or population growth is added at the beginning of the turn.  This way the player has an opportunity to deal with the effects of the population growth and ecodamage that turn before he is slammed.

It only makes sense.  If the only indicators the player gets shows that he is safe from drone riots and ecodamage, then he ought to be safe from drone riots and ecodamage.  In other words, what the player sees is what he should actually get, instead of being slammed unexpectedly!

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2013, 03:10:42 AM

I should think the big point of it is to reduce the demand for micromanagement, which a fix of this would.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on March 20, 2013, 03:14:48 AM

And even if you ware willing to do the micromanagement, sometimes you just don't catch it, since the game gives no indication that a build or pop growth is going to trigger a drone riot or massive ecodamage effects.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2013, 03:22:35 AM

Right.  It takes a truly annoying amount of calculation.  I'm a huge, huge, super-pedantic micromanager myself, and I don't always catch those things in advance.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Lord Avalon on March 20, 2013, 03:40:06 AM

Earthmichael, if there are times when you do not see a base in danger of a drone riot, and then next turn you get a drone riot, then you are not getting a warning.  And if that is the case, simply putting the drone riot check before the pop growth check isn't going to give you any more warning.

E.g., on at the beginning of turn t the game check for drone riot is negative.  Then pop growth check is positive so base grows.  The next drone riot check is at the beginning of turn t+1, it's positive, drone riot happens, no warning.

What I meant by imprecise is you didn't specify whether checks happen at the beginning or end of turns and also whether they are checking current status or future status.  Although I wouldn't say I'm a programmer, I'm trying to think of what the changes you want entail, and I see the need for more precision in laying that out.  Because computers are stupid, and you have to tell them exactly what to do.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on March 20, 2013, 04:39:57 AM

Lord Avalon,

You are missing the point.  The REASON that the drone riot occurs is either:

1. You had population growth at the beginning of the turn, or

2. You build something with negative drone effects, such as a Genejack factory.

Therefore, the check should occur BEFORE population growth and builds.  Then the indication given by the city screen (at the end of the previous turn) would be correct.

If the drone riot check was moved to occur before the pop growth and build, THEN the indication given by the city screen would be correct.  But the city check sceen does not take into account population growth or builds.  That is the essense of the problem, and the solution is very simple (to specify): move the drone riot check and ecodamage check BEFORE the population growth and builds occur at the beginning of each turn.

Now how difficult this is to implement is another question.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Lord Avalon on March 20, 2013, 06:05:44 AM

If I missed the point, I think it is due to the imprecision I was alleging.  So let me see if the following is what you mean:

Let's say that on turn t+1 a base is going to grow, which will cause an extra drone, which would currently mean the base goes into drone riot.  At the end of turn t, the citizen screen will not show a drone, because it shows current conditions.

At the beginning of turn t+1, the check for drone riot is negative, because growth has not occurred.  Next the check for growth is positive and growth implemented.  Now the base screen as well as the citizen screen should show a drone, but not a drone riot yet.  At the beginning of turn t+2, if you have done nothing, the check for drone riot will be positive, and the effects of such will be implemented.

Similar for builds and ecodamage.  Have I got it now?

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Yitzi on March 20, 2013, 02:24:52 PM

Patch priority really depends on two things: Importance and ease.  (A difficult patch is lower priority simply because in the time it takes, several easier patches could be done which might together be more important than the difficult one.)

In terms of importance, I would say that this is lower than major bugs (since they make the game unplayable, whereas this can be checked, it's just a bit of a hassle*), but above the fairly rare stuff.  It's probably above most modding fixes, though one of the perks of being a patcher is getting to push stuff to the head of the list (not sure if I will, though, it may depend on how easy it ends up being), and it's below making the patch able to use old maps (my current project) and fixing the ecodamage facility treatment to count how many facilities you own rather than how many you've built (my next project).

In terms of ease, that really depends how it's done.  I see two ways to do this:
1. Have a separate display of what will happen next turn.  This is so difficult as to border on impossible.
2. Change the order of calculations so that stuff that happens this turn doesn't affect drone riots/ecodamage until next turn.  This will be somewhat easier, but it's changing something that is not a clear bug** and so would require either (1) everybody here agreeing that it counts as a bug fix, or (2)Adding a variable in alphax #RULES that determines which way it goes.  It would then be doable, though still somewhat of a job.

*Not a huge hassle, since you can use the F4 screen to limit to those bases which have exactly as many drones as talents (by the time it's an issue, the University usually has gotten its single extra drone on Transcend), and then just check which of those will grow next turn.  For ecodamage jumps it's even easier, as you can just check what's about to build a production-boosting facility.

**Other side effects would be that you would not get the benefits of most facilities and many projects, or pay maintenance for a facility, the turn it's built, and that you would not gain the benefits of a new citizen the turn you get them.  "What you see is what you get" cuts both ways.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on March 20, 2013, 09:35:56 PM

1. I would argue that the order of checks IS a bug.  For example, if I build a factory, do I gain the production benefit on the same turn I build it?  Of course not.  It only affects next turn production.  So why should I suffer ecodamage for resources that I have not even gained yet?

2. The micromanagement issue is very serious, BUncle pointed out.  It is not so easy to figure out which cities are at the limit of drone suppression, especially if you have no talents.  Also, there are some circumstances that can result in as many as 3 new drones between turns.  And ecodamage is way too complicated to try to calculate and mitigate ahead of time.

3. You get the benefit of population and production on the turn after you get them anyway.  All we are talking about is moving when the drone riots and ecodamage checks occur, nothing else..  Everything else is going to behave as it always has.  The only thing that would change is that if you were build a drone suppressing facility, and were planning on it suppressing the current drones, you would have to plan differently.  Fortunately, that is easy to do.  Just look at the city screens, and do something to deal with those which are red before you end the turn.

4. I do not think this needs to be parametized.  I can't imagine anyone who would want to play any other way than moving the checks first.  So if one can move the drone riot and ecodamage checks first, before anything else is done, that would be perfect.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Yitzi on March 21, 2013, 12:28:36 AM

Quote from: Lord Avalon on March 20, 2013, 03:40:06 AM

Earthmichael, if there are times when you do not see a base in danger of a drone riot, and then next turn you get a drone riot, then you are not getting a warning.  And if that is the case, simply putting the drone riot check before the pop growth check isn't going to give you any more warning.

E.g., on at the beginning of turn t the game check for drone riot is negative.  Then pop growth check is positive so base grows.  The next drone riot check is at the beginning of turn t+1, it's positive, drone riot happens, no warning.

Not quite true.  You see, when you enter the base or make certain changes it will recalculate drones and talents, so it will check that with the increased number.  I'm not sure if F4 will by itself recalculate (though it probably will, and if not I believe that entering the social engineering screen will recalculate so you can then check F4), but even if you have to go through all the bases, at least you don't have to do calculations as well.

Quote from: Earthmichael on March 20, 2013, 09:35:56 PM

1. I would argue that the order of checks IS a bug.  For example, if I build a factory, do I gain the production benefit on the same turn I build it?  Of course not.  It only affects next turn production.  So why should I suffer ecodamage for resources that I have not even gained yet?

That seems reasonable, but still not certain, so I'd want to get communal opinion before making any mandatory changes.

Quote

2. The micromanagement issue is very serious, BUncle pointed out.  It is not so easy to figure out which cities are at the limit of drone suppression, especially if you have no talents.

Ok, I suppose that makes sense.  It's not as serious as "the game crashes", but it's serious.  I'll put it on the list for version 2.2*, unless scient gets a patch to that effect done first.

*2.0 is for removing the need to hex edit to use old maps, making it possible to change new alphax variables midgame, getting rid of the lowered landmark limit, and getting rid of the "facilities count to increase the ecodamage cap even if you sell them, but not if you capture them" bug.  2.1 is for updating to include all scient's patches up to that date.  So 2.2 is the first open slot.

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Also, there are some circumstances that can result in as many as 3 new drones between turns.

Wondering what these are.

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And ecodamage is way too complicated to try to calculate and mitigate ahead of time.

That said, 2 points of ecodamage isn't that bad; you only get huge jumps when building a facility that boosts production, which is easier to check.

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3. You get the benefit of population and production on the turn after you get them anyway.  All we are talking about is moving when the drone riots and ecodamage checks occur, nothing else..  Everything else is going to behave as it always has.

It's not that simple, as those benefits depend on the result of drone riot checks, and will depend on the results of ecodamage checks to a lesser extent if the ecodamage checks are moved to before production.

Quote

The only thing that would change is that if you were build a drone suppressing facility, and were planning on it suppressing the current drones, you would have to plan differently.  Fortunately, that is easy to do.  Just look at the city screens, and do something to deal with those which are red before you end the turn.

Ecodamage and riots moved to before facilities and growth.
Production must be before facilities/growth and after riots.

Current seems to be: Nutrient production, growth, energy production I, riots, mineral production, facilities, ecodamage, cash/research.

Would change to: Energy production I, riots, mineral production I, ecodamage, nutrient production, growth, mineral production, facilities, cash/research.

So changes are: Nutrient/growth moved after energy/riots, ecodamage moved to before mineral/facilities/growth

You'd also have the effects that:
-Golden ages, like riots, would be calculated before growth, so if a golden age begins or ends that turn it could affect growth.
-Fungal pops would come before building facilities or growth, so if that changes the production of a square, it could affect growth or production.

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4. I do not think this needs to be parametized.  I can't imagine anyone who would want to play any other way than moving the checks first.  So if one can move the drone riot and ecodamage checks first, before anything else is done, that would be perfect.

I doubt anyone would want to either, but it is changing something that was not clearly not intended, so I'd ask before making involuntary changes.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Nexii on April 14, 2013, 04:03:34 PM

I agree.  The check for drone riots should come after growth and effects from new facilities/projects.

Does the same bug benefit for Golden Age (i.e. the Golden Age is checked after new facilities/projects/growth)?  Probably minor and on a tangent, but something to consider. (Edit: ITT, oh well)

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 14, 2013, 04:05:01 PM

Good question.

Welcome to AC2, Nexii!  How did you find us?

...

[I think this thread belongs in Bug Reports; it's not exactly one, but it's patch business.]

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Nexii on April 14, 2013, 06:42:02 PM

Thanks!

I recently got into SMAC again having DLed it cheap from GOG.  I had played it a lot when it was new (1999).  I was searching around for patches and came across the board.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on April 14, 2013, 08:37:46 PM

Quote from: Nexii on April 14, 2013, 04:03:34 PM

I agree.  The check for drone riots should come after growth and effects from new facilities/projects.

Does the same bug benefit for Golden Age (i.e. the Golden Age is checked after new facilities/projects/growth)?  Probably minor and on a tangent, but something to consider. (Edit: ITT, oh well)

Nexii, the actual check for drone riots already comes after growth and effects from new facilities/projects.

I am arguing that the actual check should occur before this so it matches the psych summary screen for each city.  This way if the summary screens show no drone riot, you actually have no drone riots next turn, i.e. what you see (on the summary screen) is what you get (next turn).

As for the situation that can cause 3 new drones in one turn, if you have pop growth (1 new drone) that pushes University to a multiple of 4 pop (1 more new drone) at the same time you complete a Genejack Factory, you can get 3 new drones in one turn.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Nexii on April 14, 2013, 08:54:33 PM

Typo, I meant before :P.  I had 'after' in my mind as that's how it is now.  Anyways besides the UI reasons, it just doesn't seem logical that population just born can riot in the same year.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Yitzi on April 15, 2013, 01:35:03 AM

Quote from: Nexii on April 14, 2013, 08:54:33 PM

Typo, I meant before :P.  I had 'after' in my mind as that's how it is now.  Anyways besides the UI reasons, it just doesn't seem logical that population just born can riot in the same year.

Actually, when you put it that way, it makes perfect sense that they should.  :D

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: testdummy653 on April 15, 2013, 01:37:19 AM

baby drones.  ;lol

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Nexii on April 15, 2013, 04:55:57 AM

Lol well baby drones would be easy to pacify if nothing else.  Send em to the punishment sphere!

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 15, 2013, 05:03:55 AM

Nexii, you're a live one - I like that.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Yitzi on May 26, 2013, 05:20:36 AM

I am pleased to announce that this will be an option in version 2.1 of my patch.  However, there are a few caveats:
1. It will be based on the state of your empire at the beginning of your turn, rather than the end of the previous turn.  That means that if an enemy probe team destroys your rec commons, you might get unplanned-for drone riots.  I think this will enhance the game anyway, by making for more interesting approaches to such things.
2. A base can also be affected by what happened earlier that turn in another base.  Usually the effects of this will be positive; the only exceptions I can see are:
-Scrapping (voluntarily or not) ecological facilities will affect clean minerals in later bases.
-The Bulk Matter Transmitter, Singularity Inductor, and Manifold Harmonics will affect ecodamage in later bases.  So three times in a game (at most) you'll have to do a more careful calculation for ecodamage (though for Manifold Harmonics to have an effect on production means that you've got good PLANET anyway and probably don't particularly mind having more fungus).
-I'm not sure, but the Planetary Transit System might rarely cause drone riots in later bases by instantly growing them from size 1 to size 3.  This also will remain.
3. If it's set to "what you see is what you get" mode, then if you save or load in the middle of the base sequence, it will cause bugs.  Of course, things get fairly buggy when you do that anyway, so it should be an acceptable price.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Green1 on May 26, 2013, 11:01:35 AM

How about this:

radial button under game preferences:

X Supply crawlers limited to number of bases.,
X Copters 2 attacks per round.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Earthmichael on May 26, 2013, 02:14:27 PM

I think these are all very acceptable caveats.  This will be a huge help for the minor stuff, like population growth and production.  I really look forward to your patch!  Thanks for the effort!

1. Enemy actions should be able to destabilize your cities, such as using probe team to incite drone riots or sabotage a rec commons.

2. I could see the PTS instant shift to size 3 would still cause drone riots if your cities were not ready.  Unanticipated ecodamage after completing a SP is fine.

3. There are already problems saving or loading in the starting sequence for a turn.  Once should always wait until you get a unit ready for orders, so no real change there.

It all sounds great! Thanks!

Quote from: Yitzi on May 26, 2013, 05:20:36 AM

I am pleased to announce that this will be an option in version 2.1 of my patch.  However, there are a few caveats:
1. It will be based on the state of your empire at the beginning of your turn, rather than the end of the previous turn.  That means that if an enemy probe team destroys your rec commons, you might get unplanned-for drone riots.  I think this will enhance the game anyway, by making for more interesting approaches to such things.
2. A base can also be affected by what happened earlier that turn in another base.  Usually the effects of this will be positive; the only exceptions I can see are:
-Scrapping (voluntarily or not) ecological facilities will affect clean minerals in later bases.
-The Bulk Matter Transmitter, Singularity Inductor, and Manifold Harmonics will affect ecodamage in later bases.  So three times in a game (at most) you'll have to do a more careful calculation for ecodamage (though for Manifold Harmonics to have an effect on production means that you've got good PLANET anyway and probably don't particularly mind having more fungus).
-I'm not sure, but the Planetary Transit System might rarely cause drone riots in later bases by instantly growing them from size 1 to size 3.  This also will remain.
3. If it's set to "what you see is what you get" mode, then if you save or load in the middle of the base sequence, it will cause bugs.  Of course, things get fairly buggy when you do that anyway, so it should be an acceptable price.

Title: Re: Patch priority: What you see is what you get (drone riots/ecodamage)
Post by: Yitzi on May 26, 2013, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Green1 on May 26, 2013, 11:01:35 AM

How about this:

radial button under game preferences:

X Supply crawlers limited to number of bases.,
X Copters 2 attacks per round.

That would be way too difficult to code, for a number of reasons; if you want those sorts of limitations it's probably better just to houserule them in.  (The AI won't listen, but at the level where they may be necessary, the AI needs the help anyway.)