Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Guv’ner on March 09, 2013, 02:34:10 PM

Title: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 09, 2013, 02:34:10 PM

This is a diplomacy niggle that I bring to note only because it is such a common message to see.

When you ask for a treaty and it is rejected the AI opponent always gives the following reply

Quote

#REJTREATY
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
“My friendship cannot be bought, my good $TITLE1, it must be earned.”

I find the above script.txt diplomacy message a little bit annoying as it seems to imply you offered something even when, on the prior screen, you choose the option:

Quote

“Why, my goodwill and friendship, $TITLE0 $NAME1.”

Do you think that something along the lines of the following would be better?:

Quote

“To earn my friendship it will take more then that my good $TITLE1.”

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Lord Avalon on March 09, 2013, 05:17:39 PM

But you did offer something:  both goodwill and friendship, surely worth more than any amount of paltry energy credits or tech.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 09, 2013, 05:28:29 PM

I should have added hugs and kisses

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Yitzi on March 10, 2013, 01:02:35 AM

It does make more sense, but would probably require a code change, and isn't a high enough priority for that likely to happen soon unless you can do it.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 10, 2013, 01:10:11 AM

It's just a change to script.txt (not the hugs and kisses bit). If it were to be part of even an unofficial update though, I think it needs popular acclamation as it were.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Yitzi on March 10, 2013, 01:32:49 AM

Quote from: Guv’ner on March 10, 2013, 01:10:11 AM

It's just a change to script.txt (not the hugs and kisses bit).

Yeah, if you're ok with changing it for everything, rather than just when you offered goodwill and friendship.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 10, 2013, 01:37:57 AM

That was the point of my thread. Is there a problem at all (or is it my poor performing anxiety), and if there is, is that a suitably ambiguous response to all offers.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: ete on March 10, 2013, 07:33:39 PM

I have found that line quite out of place/jarring. If we're doing more subjective changes, I'd maybe agree with changing it (though “It will take more then that to earn my friendship, my good $TITLE1.” seems to flow better imo). But, I'm not sure about how far to go with this, and for every other option selected previously it works fine.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 10, 2013, 07:41:17 PM

It does flow better. It would be stretching a point too far to regard it as bugged text. It’s certainly a change I’ll make to my own files but even I can’t justify adding it to an update.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Mako on March 11, 2013, 05:58:31 AM

If a change makes sense, and if this community is going to publish an unofficial patch anyhow, I would vote for changing it.

If you think as the AC2.info forum as the "unofficial custodians" of the SMAC legacy, we are very much allowed to do this aesthetic changes in our own unofficial patches.

I say that small things like this should be changed without too much debate. We are already showing respect to the original product by buying it, playing it, and modifying it after 14 years.

I would encourage everyone working in this to feel free to change these kind of things without asking, and only revert it if the members of the community ask for it.

IMHO :-)

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 11, 2013, 12:23:22 PM

I like flagging ideas like this as due to the accumulated game play experience on the boards, people may be able to spot unintended consequences that I’ve missed.

I don’t think there’s any problem with tweaking the sense or logic in parts of the game as long as there is consensus on the changes. Text file changes are obviously easy to make.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Mako on March 12, 2013, 12:33:52 AM

Hi,

I agree with you Guv'ner. My comment was more on the line of: "let's not be shy on modyifing four our own purposes a 14-year old game" rather than not having a healthy community discussion.

Keep on the good work!

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 13, 2013, 08:32:05 PM

Your view prevails Mako, into the update it goes.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Kilkakon on March 22, 2013, 06:10:49 AM

The text line you mentioned also appears when one says "You need but name your price" when they ask what they get in exchange for a treaty.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on March 22, 2013, 10:55:07 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on March 22, 2013, 06:10:49 AM

The text line you mentioned also appears when one says "You need but name your price" when they ask what they get in exchange for a treaty.

It is slightly more apposite for that particular offer but I think the rewording still works for that

The diplomacy is simplified in the final release and there are other offers and possible rounds that are in the script and could possibly be implemented by one of the three exe modders.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Geo on April 20, 2013, 12:11:09 AM

On that note, it always bugged me that the progenitors start communications with their alien way of expressing things, and then all of a sudden use human lines when certain deals are discussed. Think if anything can be adjusted there?

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 20, 2013, 12:24:51 AM

...I bet that would take a line of code in the .exe and Prog versions in all the faction files.  Now that you've brought it up I'll probably notice it on my own, but do you remember enough to be more specific?

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: scient on April 20, 2013, 01:28:07 AM

It's prob some of the diplomacy dialog from script.txt that is generic for all factions that doesn't have alien specific text.  Adding in checks to use alien dialog files isn't that difficult.  There are plenty of examples through out entire exe.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on April 20, 2013, 09:53:25 AM

Lots of alien dialogue is included in the files and I'm not sure it’s all been used. I’ll fire up a test game and see if I can identify were the human dialogue is being used and whether there are unused alien alternatives. Script entries may just be mislabelled, in which case it would be an easy fix.

I’m sure it would be possible to cobble together dialogue from existing examples if need be.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 20, 2013, 02:33:00 PM

-Or write new stuff.  Prog speech has an easy style to ape.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on April 20, 2013, 02:46:01 PM

It appears (on the basis of a quick file compare) that all the Usurper and Caretaker dialogue is in their script files with the correct control lines. So it’s quite possibly something that Scient can fix, that is if he can reach up to place it atop his Sisyphean hill.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Geo on April 20, 2013, 03:01:33 PM

Quote from: Guv’ner on April 20, 2013, 09:53:25 AM

Lots of alien dialogue is included in the files and I'm not sure it’s all been used. I’ll fire up a test game and see if I can identify were the human dialogue is being used and whether there are unused alien alternatives. Script entries may just be mislabelled, in which case it would be an easy fix.

Its usually when the trading starts.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: scient on April 20, 2013, 05:34:56 PM

I found a bug relating to incorrect faction id being set within diplomacy for sharing battle plans.  Once triggered, it can cause chain reaction where other areas are affected as well.  This bug is easily fixed and I put together patch that Guv is currently testing. If you can find any other areas where Progenitors switch into Human syntax let me know.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Geo on April 20, 2013, 11:08:18 PM

Does it make a difference if the info comes from a non-community patched game or not? I've finally bitten the bullet and put some money in GOG...

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Guv’ner on April 20, 2013, 11:11:40 PM

Scient’s patch works on the GOG version. That's the one I'm working from. It's pretty much the full official patched version with the odd typographical oddity scattered about the place. I didn't find any important changes.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 20, 2013, 11:13:45 PM

I'm mostly working from v1.0, and I've found plenty of things in need of attention...

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 21, 2013, 06:05:36 PM

And in a related issue, am I the only one who, every single game, has one faction that not only tells you they can't be bought when you offered only your goodwill and friendship for a treaty, but absolutely, positively will not treaty with you, ever, no matter what?  No matter your SE settings, common enemies, and how many gifts you give them?  Not vendetta; just refusing to have anything to do with the player for the maybe 100 turns it takes for them to get mad about something and declare war.

And I swear, every single game of SMAC I played in 2008, it was Santi - I'm still getting it in X, but presumably because of the 21 factions randomly selecting, who it is varies. 

Anyone?

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Geo on April 21, 2013, 07:10:56 PM

I guess it depends on how strong Santi becomes. As the Believers I had no problem pacting with the Spartans. But they were in trouble from the Fungal Boy.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Yitzi on April 21, 2013, 08:14:12 PM

Quote from: Geo on April 21, 2013, 07:10:56 PM

I guess it depends on how strong Santi becomes. As the Believers I had no problem pacting with the Spartans. But they were in trouble from the Fungal Boy.

Wait, the Spartans were in trouble from Dawn?  With their morale, they should be great against him.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 21, 2013, 09:05:05 PM

Should I move this thread?  Seems a little BugPatch...

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Geo on April 21, 2013, 09:23:45 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on April 21, 2013, 08:14:12 PM

Quote from: Geo on April 21, 2013, 07:10:56 PM

I guess it depends on how strong Santi becomes. As the Believers I had no problem pacting with the Spartans. But they were in trouble from the Fungal Boy.

Wait, the Spartans were in trouble from Dawn?  With their morale, they should be great against him.

Cha Dawn must have gotten a good tech from H'minee, the third faction on the continent.

Title: Re: Grating diplomacy
Post by: Kilkakon on April 22, 2013, 04:41:05 PM

I'm all for more faction.txt versions of script.txt entries. :)