Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Command Nexus => Topic started by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 11:36:12 AM

Title: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 11:36:12 AM
As it turned out, my last game ended up already and it left me feel like beside being a utterly and totally victorious, but also eager to play more ^_^.

So, anyone up for taking rounds with me? Here would be my prefferred game settings, which most of are surely negotiable:

Standard map size with 7 factions, Ai filling the spots.

I would like to play with atleast 2 players addition to me, since i already have bit of experience on 1vs1 games. Though it seems that other players favors here 3 players setting anyway so that good healthy pace of the turns is morelikely to happen. Soooo i gues we aim for that then, though i wouldnt mind more players, could fun ^_^, even if bit slower yes... But fun! ^_^.

Difficulty Trancend

All victories enabled

Do or Die enabled

Tech stagnation enabled (totally negotiable)

Spoils of war Off (too op imo)

No unity survey and no unity scattering (i would like to hold on to these but ofc majority decides in the end ;))

Random events: Dont have any strong opinions on this one, though when i play as builder, that energy reserves killing-event gives me grey hairs.

And faction of mine would be Believers, momentum or builder depending all on which stradegy would be fitting in my situation.

And suggested houserules: No stockpiling, atrocies enabled
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 02, 2013, 12:46:31 PM
Most people here play 4 player games, so now I'm a bit in two minds, as 1) 4 player game will be more interesting diplomatically 2) they are much longer in real time. In my other game 'We'll Meet Soon', we do one turn per week (!), whereas our 'Water World' was on average one turn per day.

Anyway, I want to join. My expectations:

- a planet covered with land in at least 50%  :P
- no tech stagnation, please

Some house rules concerning choppers would be in order, but I don't insist.

I want to encourage everyone to switch to the kyrub's patch. It includes everything scient's but is said to greatly enhance AI. I want to try it out and possibly make it standard for my games. It also solves stockpiling bug, so there's no need to adopt any house rule. It's downloadable here: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108)

I'll probably take Morgan again, I want to tap his full potential. ;)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 01:25:24 PM
Most people here play 4 player games, so now I'm a bit in two minds, as 1) 4 player game will be more interesting diplomatically 2) they are much longer in real time. In my other game 'We'll Meet Soon', we do one turn per week (!), whereas our 'Water World' was on average one turn per day.


One week!? Thats like.. NOOOooooooo! :D I would expect peeps to push button regularly atleast once a day. But yeh, hopefully we get good set of people with miniuam "life-factor", like me ^_^


Anyway, I want to join. My expectations:

- a planet covered with land in at least 50%  :P



I was actually having wild thoughts on 100% land coverage :D, but i gues that too would give sort of edge for momentum players.


- no tech stagnation, please



Oooohkayyyy


Some house rules concerning choppers would be in order, but I don't insist.



I'm cool with this


I want to encourage everyone to switch to the kyrub's patch. It includes everything scient's but is said to greatly enhance AI. I want to try it out and possibly make it standard for my games. It also solves stockpiling bug, so there's no need to adopt any house rule. It's downloadable here: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108)


Well i will do that once forum has officially stated that being must-have-patch. Atm i'm having game with my friend, and patching it would prob mess my game.. Soo i should have 2 alphas on my pc aaaaand hassle and effort and meh :D
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: roninscg on January 02, 2013, 06:17:17 PM
I want to join if is ok for you guys  :-)

Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 06:55:30 PM
I want to join if is ok for you guys  :-)

Ofc ofc, come in come in ^_^. Might take a sometime before we can get game up since our good CMN is on his paternity leave atm . But, while we wait, pls tell us your preferred game type and faction :)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Bodissey on January 02, 2013, 08:20:14 PM
I'd be happy to join. If there's an opening.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 02, 2013, 08:25:25 PM
I'd be happy to join. If there's an opening.

Before we finished Water World I PMed Dolgorukov and know he wanted in. So it's quite likely we have a team for 2 games right now.  :D
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 02, 2013, 08:29:31 PM
Well i will do that once forum has officially stated that being must-have-patch. Atm i'm having game with my friend, and patching it would prob mess my game.. Soo i should have 2 alphas on my pc aaaaand hassle and effort and meh :D

funbot, I doubt the staff will ever force us to use any specific patch or else. But I really want to use kyrub, stupid AI is one of the biggest issues in SMAC and kyrub tried to solve it at least partially. There is no hassle in making another copy - AFAIK, you just make a new folder and copy your SMAX into it and apply the patch, it should work. 1 GB of space and 10 minuts of work. I can agree to tech stagnation if you want...  :D
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 08:40:02 PM
Before we finished Water World I PMed Dolgorukov and know he wanted in. So it's quite likely we have a team for 2 games right now.  :D

Well if thats the case, im all game for 2 games as well ^_^

funbot, I doubt the staff will ever force us to use any specific patch or else. But I really want to use kyrub, stupid AI is one of the biggest issues in SMAC and kyrub tried to solve it at least partially. There is no hassle in making another copy - AFAIK, you just make a new folder and copy your SMAX into it and apply the patch, it should work. 1 GB of space and 10 minuts of work. I can agree to tech stagnation if you want...  :D

Ohkay, since you are so incisting about it, i'll try to make it work then X)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: roninscg on January 02, 2013, 09:03:47 PM
@ funbot

I prefer  small map,
 factions- all random, If I have to choose than UNI or HIV
for me kyrub's patch is ok to play with,
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 09:13:40 PM
All factions random? Thats hardcore :D, though i doubt not too many would like to play that way :). Small map would be ok to me, but i think it will again give bit edge for momentum players.

But, your votes are being received, and we just wait the outcome ^_^
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 02, 2013, 09:14:50 PM
I'd be happy to join. If there's an opening.

Sweet, do you have any preferred settings on mind or do u just want go with the flow? :)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 02, 2013, 10:36:49 PM
All factions random? Thats hardcore :D, though i doubt not too many would like to play that way :).

I'd be fine with "all random"...but I don't like playing with
-no Unity scattering
-Easy atrocities, at least in terms of base-obliteration
-Copters that can get more than 8 movement per turn (not counting CBA and Fuel Nanocells)
-Ecodamage-free boreholes before the late game
-Cheap crawlers
-The ability to build a project within a turn or two of getting the prerequisite tech (by storing up crawlers or having the whole empire work on the project via crawlers)
-Various features that favor ICS
-An ecodamage system that makes your PLANET rating fairly worthless for a builder game
-Hurrying that's as cheap (after considering the fact that there are far more energy-boosters than mineral-boosters until the late game) as building things normally
-Unit upgrading that's even cheaper than that
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Dolgorukov on January 03, 2013, 04:19:23 AM
Whoah, anything more than 3 is a crowd in my opinion when it comes to PBEMs. However I do want the diplomatic depth that comes with many human-controlled factions and at the same time the luxury of not having necessary to play a turn every day while maintaining a fast game pace. So I'm advocating to try a team game approach in another thread:

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2862.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2862.0)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 03, 2013, 04:16:42 PM
I'd be fine with "all random"...but I don't like playing with
-no Unity scattering
-Easy atrocities, at least in terms of base-obliteration
-Copters that can get more than 8 movement per turn (not counting CBA and Fuel Nanocells)
-Ecodamage-free boreholes before the late game
-Cheap crawlers
-The ability to build a project within a turn or two of getting the prerequisite tech (by storing up crawlers or having the whole empire work on the project via crawlers)
-Various features that favor ICS

You seem bit absolute with your terms, do you mean that if any of those things are approved by majority, you wont join the game? And couple of changes you request seems to require tweaking on core mechanics on game like:
-An ecodamage system that makes your PLANET rating fairly worthless for a builder game
-Hurrying that's as cheap (after considering the fact that there are far more energy-boosters than mineral-boosters until the late game) as building things normally
-Unit upgrading that's even cheaper than that

I think making such drastic changes on game takes me too far away from my comfort zone. Or are those terms already applied on default games?
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 03, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
You seem bit absolute with your terms, do you mean that if any of those things are approved by majority, you wont join the game?

A few might be negotiable in theory (though those which are not supported by any currently existing unofficial patch would be enough that I'd probably want to sit this one out), but I would be fairly absolute on those terms, simply because each one of them is projected to be necessary for the game to be the way I like it (as opposed to everyone going ICS/FM/air-power-to-take-and-obliterate-bases.)

Quote
And couple of changes you request seems to require tweaking on core mechanics

Well, the hurrying bit can be done just by giving all factions +50% hurry cost, but yes, a lot of it will require new things to be made tweakable.  I'm working on it (and am pleased to announce I have finished my first bug fix in the process), but it takes some time.

When I'm done with all the needed and wanted tweaks, I plan to make "SMAX 1.5" semi-official.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 03, 2013, 05:30:38 PM
When I'm done with all the needed and wanted tweaks, I plan to make "SMAX 1.5" semi-official.

UUuuuu, well that sounds intriguing. I wish u good luck on your project ^_^, and yeh, i couldnt be more glad if needlejets would recieve a serious series of nerf-hammering.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 03, 2013, 05:49:30 PM
UUuuuu, well that sounds intriguing. I wish u good luck on your project ^_^, and yeh, i couldnt be more glad if needlejets would recieve a serious series of nerf-hammering.

Actually, needlejets will get off easy, as compared to choppers.  The biggest hit to needlejets will probably be that you'll need a +2 POLICE rating to obliterate a base (and without the ability to focus your troops to take a base and destroy it before it can be taken back, needlejets often simply aren't worth the vulnerability to AAA).
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Ohkay, now that our CMN is back, its time to sum up what we have.

Players are as follow:

Me - Believers
Kirov - Morgans
ronin - hive / uni
Bodissey - ?
+ 3 random Ai

Patch: kyrub

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108)

Difficulty Trancend

All victories enabled

Do or Die enabled

Tech stagnation Off

Spoils of war Off

No unity survey and no unity scattering

Random events: Off

And suggested houserules: No stockpiling, atrocies enabled, choppers highest attack value allowed is 4.

Players are expected make their turn once a day, with 3 days force turned. If this happens twice in a row, player will be replaced or turned to Ai

If theres any suggestions or objections with these settings, post em' pls right away. Faster we find agreement here, faster our good cmn can get to work ^_^
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 04, 2013, 03:49:12 PM
I counted 6 players here,Kirov (including Funbot and Yitzi). AM I missing something?
On one hand , I think it is a bit too many to sustain a full game. On the other hand, all of the players here are certainly stable enough. Your desition.
Yitzi, I think thet , at least untill you have the patch ready, you might be being a little too restrictive.
Regarding the team game, we could take it to another direction. What if we had 6 players wach with one faction devided into two groups (Ill do the splitting according to the factions you choose)? Pre packetd and no unpackting.
This way  players can back up each other and if one player is gone the others can play some turns untill the player is back.

Waiting to the final votes to make the game.

Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 04, 2013, 04:05:13 PM
Yitzi, I think thet , at least untill you have the patch ready, you might be being a little too restrictive.

The only restriction before I have the patch ready is that I'm not playing.  Without the patch, it just rewards the sort of gameplay I dislike too heavily.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 04:06:35 PM
Well as far as i understood, Yitzi and dolgurokov were both not eager to join this game due their own reasons (yitzi not happy with current patch and dolgurokov dislikes Usual +3 player games).

Dolgurokovs team game is a totally diffrent issue to me, and since i didnt honestly fully or (remotelly) understand the whole concempt of the game, i decided to pass on that personally.

For me, teams/alliances/pacts should be made ingame instead of premade teams. It just seems more natural to me (would love to give good detailed speech why but i feel my english aint good enough for that  ;lol)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 04, 2013, 04:58:02 PM
Well as far as i understood, Yitzi and dolgurokov were both not eager to join this game due their own reasons (yitzi not happy with current patch and dolgurokov dislikes Usual +3 player games).

Dolgurokovs team game is a totally diffrent issue to me, and since i didnt honestly fully or (remotelly) understand the whole concempt of the game, i decided to pass on that personally.

For me, teams/alliances/pacts should be made ingame instead of premade teams. It just seems more natural to me (would love to give good detailed speech why but i feel my english aint good enough for that  ;lol)

For one thing, premade teams, or any sort of binding teams, makes it too easy to specialize and avoid downsides.  For instance, Aki/Domai is an extremely powerful combination if Domai can simply build up (in population and infrastructure) new bases and then pass them over to Aki to get tons of research from.  At least with ingame teams it's harder to make such alliances, and if they can be broken then there usually won't be enough trust to let things get too out-of-hand.  (Even so, I favor a system where a cooperative victory is worth less than a solo victory, to encourage making permanent alliances only when it's extremely useful.)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 04, 2013, 05:17:38 PM
What's the map size? I'm afraid for poor Morgan he won't stand against another invasion of brutal Believers and I see there is the Hive onboard. Maybe I should reconsider... :)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 04, 2013, 05:26:15 PM
The only restriction before I have the patch ready is that I'm not playing.  Without the patch, it just rewards the sort of gameplay I dislike too heavily.

I too have a feeling that military victory is too easy compared with the others. It takes some interest out of the game for sure.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 04, 2013, 05:35:06 PM
I too have a feeling that military victory is too easy compared with the others. It takes some interest out of the game for sure.

That part really isn't as much of a concern for me, as defensive facilities make defense stronger than offense (at least without nerve gas); the only things that would need to changed are making it hard (I'm thinking a +2 POLICE prerequisite) to use nerve gas against bases or to obliterate them (as if you can't use nerve gas it's difficult to take bases, and if you can't obliterate bases then to accomplish anything you need to not only take bases but keep them.)
Having more players, and punishing cooperative victory somewhat, will also help a lot in terms of making conquest victories hard, as it means people can form a temporary alliance against someone who's conquering a lot.  That sort of "gang up on the leader" phenomenon is very good for helping the game go longer and reach the point where conquest is less of a concern.
Of course, you still could end up with an endgame conquest play involving orbital insertions of drop blink shock troopers, but once you're in the endgame conquest is less of a problem.
But all those fixes can be done via house rules, so that's not the tricky part that needs a patch.  The only part that might need a patch (and even that can theoretically be done with house rules) is my idea of depowering choppers/gravships by limiting them to 8 movement (+2 CBA, +2 fuel nanocells).

The tricky part is making ecodamage meaningful beyond just "you must have X tree farms/hybrid forests/centauri preserves/temples of Planet/fungal pops in order to produce Y minerals", and (associated with that) making "borehole everywhere you can" a bad idea, and making ICS a poor idea for builders, and making crawlers less powerful, and making "build a cheap unit and upgrade to the one you actually want" not an effective approach, and making farm/enricher/condenser stop being overpowered, and decreasing beelining (though decreasing beelining can be done with house rules and already available alphax mods.)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 05:53:32 PM
At least with ingame teams it's harder to make such alliances, and if they can be broken then there usually won't be enough trust to let things get too out-of-hand.

Yes, specificly the trust issue is that i love in ingame pacts. The tension and all of is just simply so too irresistable to me for spoiling all the fun with premade teams :P. And it just makes more sense to me, for building pacts due ingame issue, were they geopolitical reasons or is there a military looney that must put down for global security
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 06:00:20 PM
What's the map size? I'm afraid for poor Morgan he won't stand against another invasion of brutal Believers and I see there is the Hive onboard. Maybe I should reconsider... :)
Well imo standard maps gives just enough space for grow but also good amount of tension with borders. And not to mention the managing stuff with larger map might get bit tiresome... Buuuuut im not feeling That strong about it, so if you incist on that, i can bend on my preferrences on that one :).

I too have a feeling that military victory is too easy compared with the others. It takes some interest out of the game for sure.

Well i wouldnt say so, specificly on miriams momentum play requires series of succesful, well placed & timed tactics and bit of luck to keep up with builders research speed. Its a hight risk high reward faction, either able to fek up own game soon or others game if lucky and skilled ^_^.

-edit- And i do feel its necessary, or atleast good gamewise to have such factions in the game, if not more reasons than just shuffle up the deck little bit. Just having punch of builders managing their production queue and formers terraforming prioritys seems rather stale and boring game to me.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 06:08:21 PM
(at least without nerve gas); the only things that would need to changed are making it hard (I'm thinking a +2 POLICE prerequisite) to use nerve gas against bases or to obliterate them (as if you can't use nerve gas it's difficult to take bases, and if you can't obliterate bases then to accomplish anything you need to not only take bases but keep them.)

Well tbh i wouldnt mind actually have this as houserule for upcoming game. Nergas Is bit op as it is /nod.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 04, 2013, 06:36:15 PM
-edit- And i do feel its necessary, or atleast good gamewise to have such factions in the game, if not more reasons than just shuffle up the deck little bit. Just having punch of builders managing their production queue and formers terraforming prioritys seems rather stale and boring game to me.

Ok, let's play a medium map, I'll think about my faction choice and drop you a line today or tomorrow.

The things is, I agree with you and I'm not a true builder myself. I met some players with the approach "let's build all facilities in all bases" and find it boring as well. But some industry and tech level is in order because I find little elegance in 2-1-2 or 4-1-2 rushes (if only for the fact that you don't use mixed units here, you just mass produce one design). I agree tactics is important and actually require good skills, but still early game = little variety. Some navy, artillery, garrisons, probe teams of several designs, maybe even an odd mind worm built for scouting purposes... now we're talking.

Plus recently I'm fascinated with Morgan, maybe that's because his gamestyle is so different.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 04, 2013, 07:00:43 PM
too much philosophy here and too little settings...
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 07:05:49 PM
well as far as i noticed, settings that i putted there couple post earlier havent changed much.

Expect for houserule for nervegas and obliterate only allowed at police+2.

We just need now confirmation for kirovs and bodiesseys factions and then we are rdy to go :P.

(unless sudden objections appear from our more quiet participants)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 04, 2013, 07:16:02 PM
Ok, let's play a medium map, I'll think about my faction choice and drop you a line today or tomorrow.

The things is, I agree with you and I'm not a true builder myself. I met some players with the approach "let's build all facilities in all bases" and find it boring as well. But some industry and tech level is in order because I find little elegance in 2-1-2 or 4-1-2 rushes (if only for the fact that you don't use mixed units here, you just mass produce one design).

Another option, for Santiago in particular, is to grab the Command Nexus (or failing that build lots of command centers), run Fundie, and go for 2-1-1 or 4-1-1 units (Santiago+Fundie+command center+monolith=elite unit, giving you that second movement point a lot cheaper than anyone else.)
Also, about the 2-1-2 or 4-1-2 rush, note that 1-2-1 units can generally successfully defend against a 2-1-2 rush if they're in a base, and with a perimeter defense can even handle  4-1-2.  Of course, this requires restricting nerve gas.
Of course, Miriam can have a decent chance of overwhelming even that, but by the time she gets 4-1-2 you've got a decent chance of getting 1-3-1 with perimeter defenses.

Expect for houserule for nervegas and obliterate only allowed at police+2.

I was actually thinking of the more general rule set:
All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 07:34:07 PM

I was actually thinking of the more general rule set:
All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

Well, sure, that sounds good too.......

Um, i'm kind of loss here, your activity here implies that you are eager to join the game but earlier i understood you Dont want join the game.... Sooo which it is? :)
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 04, 2013, 08:08:52 PM
Um, i'm kind of loss here, your activity here implies that you are eager to join the game but earlier i understood you Dont want join the game.... Sooo which it is? :)

I'm not interested in joining this game, but still interested in discussing it.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 04, 2013, 08:30:39 PM
I'm not interested in joining this game, but still interested in discussing it.
Such heresy
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 05, 2013, 01:18:11 AM
You know what guys, I actually started to consider to swap my faction and show more gentler side of me by picking Peacekeepers as my chosen people. After such warmongering mp i recently had, it might be fresh change for pace :)....


 :danc:
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Bodissey on January 05, 2013, 01:25:38 PM
I confirm I'm still interested. Any faction will do.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 05, 2013, 03:10:27 PM
OK, Morgan it stays for me.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 05, 2013, 04:12:27 PM
right, so, our settings are now:

Me - Peacekeepers
Kirov - Morgans
ronin - hive / uni
Bodissey - random
+ 3 random Ai

Patch: kyrub

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=108)

Planet size: Standard

Land coverage +50%, rest planet settings are random

Difficulty Trancend

All victories enabled

Do or Die enabled

Tech stagnation Off

Spoils of war Off

No unity survey and no unity scattering

Random events: Off

And suggested houserules: All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

No stockpiling

choppers highest attack value allowed is 4,

Players are expected make their turn once a day, with 3 days force turned. If this happens twice in a row, player will be replaced or turned to Ai

Take it away mr CMN and do your magic pls

--edit-- Forgot land coverage
--edit2-- Forgot planet size -_-
-edit3- added 'pls' to end
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 05, 2013, 09:14:05 PM
And suggested houserules: All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

Everything is fine but I'm strongly against this one rule. The reason is very simple - it will greatly benefit the Hive, already a very strong faction. Further, I see no reason why to dabble with atrocity rules. Simply put, I'm not convinced they are OP (ok, we can discuss nerve gas, but even then making it dependent on POLICE will only make matters worse as Yang is our first candidate to steamroll through the Planet with X gas anyway).

Quote
No stockpiling

This is solved in the kyrub's patch, so it's one thing easier for you. ;) Completing facilities should no longer yield cash.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 05, 2013, 09:38:59 PM
All atrocities that do not affect a base, i.e. nerve gas against non-base-defenders and planet busters that won't include a base in their radius, require POLICE +0.  All atrocities that do affect a base (except nerve stapling) require POLICE +2.  Repealing the U.N. charter does not change this, but atrocities against aliens are not restricted (except that Planet Busters still need POLICE +0.)

Let me start with saying that I don't see any need to modify atrocities.

But even if I did it, the above rule seems nice on paper but I'm afraid in practice it doesn't take into account the game balance. If we wanted to translate it into actual gameplay situations, it would mean two things:

- you can't run FM to inflict a no-base atrocity
- you must run PS to inflict a base atrocity.

Not only I don't see any logic here if we look at things like that, but also:

- this benefits the Hive in both ways
- this benefits other momentum players for reasons I fail to see
- this penalizes Data Angels from the start, already not the premium faction (also Deirdre which is a good faction, but she is weaker than the Hive in my view, so it's still unbalanced)
- this penalizes all FM users, for reasons I yet again fail to see (why FM Morgan shouldn't induce Genejack Warfare with his probes is beyond me).

Basically to simplify things a bit, this rule can be boiled down to: "in most standard situations, Hive, Santiago and Miriam can nerve gas, others not so". I'm sorry, but I can't accept it in my games.

Also, this concept says openly that you need +2 POLICE to use a Planet Buster against a base, but with 0 POLICE you can "only" nuke units, even if it's a former just next to a base. It doesn't look very serious to me, guys...  ::)

EDIT: OK, I've just noticed this thing about Planet Buster that it can't include a base. Still, the above rule fixes a thing which ain't broken in my opinion. If you have an issue with atrocities (or nerve gas specifically) we may house rule a ban on all atrocities (or nerve gas specifically) for all factions equally (I'd keep base obliteration as a nice tactics thing). I just don't agree to this rule in its current form (i.e. the Hive has a bonus I don't know why).
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 05, 2013, 10:06:50 PM
ohkay, how about we just ban nervegas. Rest attrocies are restriction free.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 06, 2013, 02:49:05 AM
Let me start with saying that I don't see any need to modify atrocities.

But even if I did it, the above rule seems nice on paper but I'm afraid in practice it doesn't take into account the game balance. If we wanted to translate it into actual gameplay situations, it would mean two things:

- you can't run FM to inflict a no-base atrocity
- you must run PS to inflict a base atrocity.

Not quite.  It also means that Deidre and Roze (unless they get the Ascetic Virtues) need PS to inflict any atrocity and can't inflict atrocities on bases at all (this idea actually began as a way to make Deidre's -1 to POLICE actually mean something), and if Santiago gets the Ascetic Virtues she doesn't need PS (it also has effects once future societies come along.)

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Not only I don't see any logic here if we look at things like that

A more oppressive society can get away with more without the citizenry preventing it.

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- this benefits the Hive in both ways

It makes a lot of sense that Yang would be the one to use atrocities the most.  I do see how it might be unbalanced if INDUSTRY isn't depowered (and Yang with it), though.

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- this benefits other momentum players for reasons I fail to see

It's not so much "benefits momentum factions" as "penalizes people who try to wage war under Free Market".  Which probably is a good thing.

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- this penalizes Data Angels from the start, already not the premium faction

Not really, as Roze really likes Free Market anyway.  It is a slight penalty, but Roze is actually fairly strong when there are a lot of roughly evenly matched players (as then her tech ability allows her to be around the middle with no effort, so she can either grab the stuff no one else is going for and be fairly high-up in tech, or ignore labs and pump economy to subvert everything.)

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(also Deirdre which is a good faction, but she is weaker than the Hive in my view, so it's still unbalanced)

It would need weakening the Hive...I originally intended it as part of a mod that would actually end up strengthening Deidre slightly

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this penalizes all FM users, for reasons I yet again fail to see (why FM Morgan shouldn't induce Genejack Warfare with his probes is beyond me).

Logically, because POLICE measures the oppressiveness of your society and oppressive societies are more able to do atrocities.
In game-play, because FM is fairly powerful.

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Basically to simplify things a bit, this rule can be boiled down to: "in most standard situations, Hive, Santiago and Miriam can nerve gas, others not so".

Why are Santiago and Miriam less likely to run FM than anyone else?

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Also, this concept says openly that you need +2 POLICE to use a Planet Buster against a base, but with 0 POLICE you can "only" nuke units, even if it's a former just next to a base.

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I'd keep base obliteration as a nice tactics thing

So then what's to keep someone from using air power to take a high-value base (losing substantially more units than they destroy, but they're able to focus their units a lot better) and obliterating it so the other guy can't take it back?  With base obliteration difficult, you can make it easier to defend against air so that taking a base with air power is very inefficient and the other guy can take it back with land units more easily, but with easy obliteration you can do so much damage that no air power fix will be sufficient without making air power completely worthless.

ohkay, how about we just ban nervegas. Rest attrocies are restriction free.

Obliteration+air power is even more overpowered than nerve gas.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 06, 2013, 02:53:36 PM
I think the source of confusion here is that Yitzi presented his wishlist and forgot to mention that those are his ideas to his mod, and then funbot thought they are actual house rule proposals for our game. Let's not mix it up. These are things Yitzi wants to work into his mod, not his conditions to join our game.

Yitzi, you tend to confuse SMAX with your mod, so you seem like you're commenting one and in fact you're talking about the other. Whenever I address gameplay issues, it's obvious I mean regular SMAX 2.0 with proper patches and not your mod. I don't care that your rule works fine if INDUSTRY is depowered. It isn't depowered right now, we're talking and playing SMAX here, where INDUSTRY works as it has always worked. We can't accept your idea as a house rule because in that future mod of yours the Hive's gonna be weaker, this makes no sense. So let's make sure we know which thing we're discussing at the moment. Taking your mod concepts as house rules is not going to work fine in SMAX.  ;)

To sum up shortly other stuff - things may work differently in your mod, but I'm mostly fine with the way atrocities work as they currently do. When I say 'logic', I mean gameplay, not realism. A new rule is illogical just because the rich get richer. Realism's not that a big issue for me. We're talking about the game in which it takes several years for a jetplane to fly around the globe. ;) I know hitchhikers faster than that. So I don't care much where Yang stands on atrocities, he's not getting any further bonus because he doesn't deserve one.

So then what's to keep someone from using air power to take a high-value base (losing substantially more units than they destroy, but they're able to focus their units a lot better) and obliterating it so the other guy can't take it back?  With base obliteration difficult, you can make it easier to defend against air so that taking a base with air power is very inefficient and the other guy can take it back with land units more easily, but with easy obliteration you can do so much damage that no air power fix will be sufficient without making air power completely worthless.

It is not my experience that obliteration is OP, I've never heard such opinion from players more experienced than me, I've never heard veterans banning or moving to ban it. On the contrary, when we banned atrocities in our game with Earthmichael, he gladly accepted base obliteration as an exception. So there is that. I concur funbot, let's keep atrocities as they are except for nerve gas which can go. I understand concerns about nerve gas.

Also, air power can't 'take high-value bases' just like that, needles and choppers simply can't capture bases. To this you need gravships or Locusts of Chiron, both very rare if for diferent reasons.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 06, 2013, 08:04:56 PM
Also, air power can't 'take high-value bases' just like that, needles and choppers simply can't capture bases.

They can, however, get rid of the defenders after which you can use a small ground force to take and destroy the base.  I'll post a separate topic in Theory of Everything about the effects of base obliteration.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Kirov on January 06, 2013, 08:29:18 PM
They can, however, get rid of the defenders after which you can use a small ground force to take and destroy the base. 

True, but this is the part where it's not OP. You need to bring those ground units to smash things around and such raids are not that easy. Also, an attacker wants to keep at least some bases as launch pads for his ongoing offensive. What might get razed is bases with Projects and I definitely want to keep that. It's a good thing to be able to destroy HSA.

All in all, obliteration hasn't been an issue in any games I've played or heard of. I did obliterate a few bases and those memories are fond to me... :) But it's definitely legit tactics in my book.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Yitzi on January 06, 2013, 11:20:54 PM
True, but this is the part where it's not OP. You need to bring those ground units to smash things around and such raids are not that easy.

If you only need a few ground units, it's a lot easier.

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Also, an attacker wants to keep at least some bases as launch pads for his ongoing offensive.

Unless he's just trying to do damage rather than a full conquest (either because there's a vendetta, or because it's only 2 players.)

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What might get razed is bases with Projects and I definitely want to keep that. It's a good thing to be able to destroy HSA.

Technically, you can destroy a base without obliterating, it just takes longer.  A base which is fought over often enough will naturally be destroyed, as it loses 1 population each time it's captured.
But why is it so necessary to be able to destroy projects?  Especially HSA...while it's certainly a powerful project, taking HSA away from him for a few turns until he can take it back will probably be enough to do the most important of what you wanted to do to him with probe teams.  Or you could just forget about probe teams and wage a conventional war, using the advantage that he spent 300 minerals more than you.  (And if that's not enough, changing the prices of projects is an easy mod.)

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All in all, obliteration hasn't been an issue in any games I've played or heard of.

So you've never encountered:
-Someone taking an underdefended base with a high-mobility force, selling the most expensive facility, and immediately obliterating it to prevent recapture?
-Someone obliterating their own bases to prevent them from falling into the hands of the enemy, and doing so often enough that even someone playing Miriam wouldn't bother trying to conquer them in a game with a lot of players?

And you have encountered people using multi-turn sieges (rather than attacker-heavy armies or mind control) to take valuable bases, not afraid that the enemy will obliterate it to avoid losing it?
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 07, 2013, 08:58:46 AM
If the settings are final I'll try to create the scenario this weekend.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 08, 2013, 01:08:48 AM
If the settings are final I'll try to create the scenario this weekend.
Settings are good to go. Only changes that might come are only tinsy tweakings on houserules, but those shouldnt be affecting on scenario creation, atleast as far as i would know.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 12, 2013, 11:07:53 PM
Scenario ready. The scenario is oriented for long run factions (builders), since these are the factions you chose.
Some details:
1 - The scenario is probably more then 50% land, but devided in 7 main iseland, one for each faction
2 - There are many smaller empty islands, most of them containing the ruins (just to make you run for them ;) )
3 - All main iselands have monsun jungle at the "pole" side of your landing and uranium flats at the  "equator" side
4 - factions:
  Funbot - Peacekeepers
  Kirov - Morgans
  ronin - Uni
  Bodissey - Drones
  AI - Gaia, Cult, Consiusness (all tracend)
5 - you all get 3 pods+3 scouts+ 3 formers (AI get 4)
6 - All the AIs are set to peacefull, but They are pre pacted and programmed to team up agains humans
7 - you are not suposed to have eahc other commlinks untill you meet

If it is all Ok with every one, please send me your passwords and Ill send the game.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: funbot on January 13, 2013, 04:04:47 AM
Scenario ready. The scenario is oriented for long run factions (builders), since these are the factions you chose.
Some details:
1 - The scenario is probably more then 50% land, but devided in 7 main iseland, one for each faction
2 - There are many smaller empty islands, most of them containing the ruins (just to make you run for them ;) )
3 - All main iselands have monsun jungle at the "pole" side of your landing and uranium flats at the  "equator" side
4 - factions:
  Funbot - Peacekeepers
  Kirov - Morgans
  ronin - Uni
  Bodissey - Drones
  AI - Gaia, Cult, Consiusness (all tracend)
5 - you all get 3 pods+3 scouts+ 3 formers (AI get 4)
6 - All the AIs are set to peacefull, but They are pre pacted and programmed to team up agains humans
7 - you are not suposed to have eahc other commlinks untill you meet

If it is all Ok with every one, please send me your passwords and Ill send the game.

Humble thanks for your effort :), cant wait to get my hands on your latest work.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: roninscg on January 13, 2013, 12:43:03 PM
I like it and settings are ok for me.

Pass send to you PM
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Bodissey on January 15, 2013, 01:24:10 PM
Pass sent also. Thanks for the setup.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Muffle Man on January 16, 2013, 03:55:43 AM
Hey guise can I join too
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 16, 2013, 04:41:38 AM
Welcome, MM. 

---

That's two new people posting in MP in as many days.  Should we try starting them out playing each other?
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: Muffle Man on January 16, 2013, 08:51:02 AM
'Ello mate

I would be up for that.
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 16, 2013, 08:46:27 PM
Let me try to arragne somthing
Title: Re: I want to play moar
Post by: t_ras on January 16, 2013, 10:15:52 PM
TTT (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2919.0) is ready with the firts turn.
Enjoy!
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