Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Green1 on December 20, 2012, 10:27:30 PM

Title: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 20, 2012, 10:27:30 PM
As I have mentioned before, I am a gaming fanatic that visits maybe dozens of forums. One such forum I keep track of is Age of Wonders 2 heaven at heaven games.

That particular community is doing something pretty ambitious. They already put out an unofficial patch for thier classic game years before Scient and Kyrub came about. Now, the next patch they are adding is basically a expansion. New units, overhauled graphics, even a campaign and random map additions. And, unlike the AC community, Swolte's and crews patches are universally accepted. Everyone in the community uses them. Yes, it took them years - but...

Why can't we do that?

SMAC, now that GOG is now selling the game as the 4x gods originally intentioned, could use that treatment.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 20, 2012, 11:02:34 PM
If you'd like to design an expansion, go ahead.  If it's not too ambitious then it can be done with mods no more difficult than those that went into Lost Eden, and if it is more ambitious then post your ideas and someone might show up who's able to do the necessary .exe mods.  (Note, however, that SMAX stores data in a set-aside portion of the program, so adding new stuff that would need to be stored might require someone who knows how to safely increase the size of the file.)
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 12:29:44 AM
Okay. In a minute, I will prepare a graphical and commentary presentation.

I suspect it would be a lost cause, though. Praying for a saviour to come about from the masses seems to be not a good solution. I hate to be pessimistic. Age of Wonders for a cult game community has one thing we do not: rabid eastern European fanatic coders that live to .exe mod and have massive fanbase and support. Also, I have reservations. Most coders I have known are not to receptive of some guy's ideas unless that person is a coder himself. Not to say they do not take suggestions. It is just they are the ones doing the "work". As such, what the community or myself feel is the number one goal, they may not.

Still.. give me a sec. If it is design, I must show exactly what I think an "expansion" entails and show pictures and documentation like a good designer should. I do not want to be a worthless forum whiner like I see on FPS or MMO forums. Some of it is ambitious. But, I think most would agree with me an expansion would do this.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 12:54:53 AM
First off.. and for coders, this seems to not be as "exciting" as adding new content or Total Conversions since it is work. More than 7 factions. Let me go into detail into what this is going to take. Now, first off I am going to say it is going to take UI work. I am assuming that the borders such for all the in game interfaces pull from the same graphics files. I am familiar with modders works in World of Warcraft and have played with LUA frames. I assume (maybe wrong) the first part of this would be boring finding stuff and then changing it/widening frames.

Notice what I feel is the "useless" function of the faction select screen. Why do I need three buttons up top for SMAC only, SMAX only, and mixed? Shouldn't just a pull down suffice?

But - UI is just the tip of the iceberg. Next post, I will share with you the more major challenges of this endeavor from posting here and there.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:06:45 AM
Another thing about it:

from an old thread on WPC from Darsnan:

Quote
my understanding is that there is a bit mask which is applied to the game, and it is an 8-bit mask. Thus only 8 Factions (including NL) are allowed in a given game. I have been able to trick the game into allowing 8 factions (i.e. I set up the 8th Faction as a playable faction), however it ain't pretty, and it crashes the game continually.

Also..  the bit mask can be expanded from another thread I can not find from an era ago. I think the poster mentioned it would exponetially expand the AI checks if you add 14 factions. His deal would be that it would affect performance. My deal is very few folks play with the 1999 minumum spec computer so that would be a non issue.

Now, unit maximum MAY bite us. I think Scient or Kyrub tried to lift the unit max but it bit him. With 14 factions, we could be pushing this.

Not sure about maps. Starting positions would have to be made for more than 7 factions.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:10:11 AM
NUMBER 2

Map Pack


I feel sorry for the multiplayers. They only have one map which is the veteran's map. Even the FPS crowd has several competition maps.

Any expansion would include the more popular competition maps. Maybe a scenario.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:17:07 AM
NUMBER 3

SMAX Palette/ graphics overhaul/ modern gfx card (HD) issues.

We do not need 3d graphics. But, it would be nice to display more colors and have a higher resolution. Resolution support for more modern graphics cards would be cool, too.


A little side note. A long time ago I was admiring Buster's Aunts take on an animated Domai and Santiago. Man, if we could lift the restrictions on that to allow stuff, it could take off. Imagine at least Civ 4 level leaderheads!
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:31:31 AM
The controversial part: :)

Most expansions offer additional gameplay. Beyond the Sword for Civ 4 offered espionage, corporations, and a host of other things. Gods and Kings offered the more as well to Civ 5. Each modern Civ has had expansions. There are those that say Civ 5 will get a third. Where is AC's third expansion?

Apart from the BASIC THREEâ„¢ (and for those not paying attention: more than 7 factions, gfx, AI)

Now, I am not going to rant for 50 posts. But, extreme areas we could concentrate on:

Orbital/ sattelite warfare. Search your feelings. No one has done it right. To be honest, I do not think anyone but SMAX has ever attempted since some Steve Jackson magazine board game from the 1980s.

Creature Bestiary. More Native units to wreak havoc would be awesome.

Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:34:05 AM
Hey.. enough of my mad ramblings... what do yall think? Where should an unofficial expansion concentrate?
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 21, 2012, 05:01:33 AM
I suspect it would be a lost cause, though. Praying for a saviour to come about from the masses seems to be not a good solution. I hate to be pessimistic. Age of Wonders for a cult game community has one thing we do not: rabid eastern European fanatic coders that live to .exe mod and have massive fanbase and support. Also, I have reservations. Most coders I have known are not to receptive of some guy's ideas unless that person is a coder himself. Not to say they do not take suggestions. It is just they are the ones doing the "work". As such, what the community or myself feel is the number one goal, they may not.

Yeah...that's one of the perks of being a coder.  Still, being number five does mean you probably get dealt with eventually.  (Then again, I might be a bit more receptive to non-coders, since I'm primarily a mod designer, who's just learning to code SMAX because it's the only way to make my mods work.)

First off.. and for coders, this seems to not be as "exciting" as adding new content or Total Conversions since it is work. More than 7 factions.

That's a very difficult coding job, for the following reasons:
1. As I mentioned, the game stores data in the file.  Among the things stored is all the information for each faction in the game.  That means that to have more faction, you need more room to store the data...and there's enough of it that you'd need to increase the actual file size and then place the necessary code in each place the location is referenced.  Increasing the file size without damaging other files is something that I don't know enough to do, perhaps some other coder would.
2. As you said, it involves UI work, which involves figuring out how Assembly uses UI (I think it's through other programs, which means it's a lot harder to figure out.)  Some coders are presumably capable of it, but none who are here now as far as I can tell.

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Notice what I feel is the "useless" function of the faction select screen. Why do I need three buttons up top for SMAC only, SMAX only, and mixed? Shouldn't just a pull down suffice?

The idea is that you might want to use pure SMAC or pure SMAX; since those were presumed to be the two most likely combinations, they're available more easily.

Now, unit maximum MAY bite us. I think Scient or Kyrub tried to lift the unit max but it bit him. With 14 factions, we could be pushing this.

My guess is that lifting the unit max caused problems due to the space issue; anyone who could solve that issue as needed to add factions would be able to increase the unit max as much as needed.

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Not sure about maps. Starting positions would have to be made for more than 7 factions.

That would be no problem; just use a larger map and place the positions as desired.  We're assuming designed maps anyway when talking about more than 7 factions, so that's no problem.

NUMBER 2

Map Pack


I feel sorry for the multiplayers. They only have one map which is the veteran's map. Even the FPS crowd has several competition maps.

Any expansion would include the more popular competition maps. Maybe a scenario.

Personally, I feel that using a predesigned map with predesigned start positions is inherently unbalancing (as it'll usually either favor the builder factions or the momentum factions).  I'd rather have randomized start positions (in which case it might as well be either a random map or the Map of Planet), and a ranking system that pays more attention to long-term tendencies (so that the effect of luck is diluted via the law of averages.)

NUMBER 3

SMAX Palette/ graphics overhaul/ modern gfx card (HD) issues.

We do not need 3d graphics. But, it would be nice to display more colors and have a higher resolution. Resolution support for more modern graphics cards would be cool, too.

Yeah, that would be nice...a nightmare to code in Assembly, though.

The controversial part: :)

Most expansions offer additional gameplay. Beyond the Sword for Civ 4 offered espionage, corporations, and a host of other things. Gods and Kings offered the more as well to Civ 5. Each modern Civ has had expansions. There are those that say Civ 5 will get a third. Where is AC's third expansion?

I'm working on it.  (Well, technically it's more of a balance fix for SMAX and later I'll extend it to SMAC, but I'm calling it Alien Crossfire 1.5 anyway, because a lot will change in terms of gameplay.)

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Orbital/ sattelite warfare.

This one is actually fairly easy:
-Make Orbital defense pods available with Orbital Spaceflight and make them cheaper.
-Make Sky Labs a lot higher in the tech tree and make them and Nessus Mining more expensive.

Now you have a system where shooting down the other guy's satellites is fairly doable unless he has a substantial production advantage, so you should get some real warfare (as well as tactics: Do you shoot down his defense pods first to prevent counterattacks, or do you shoot down his expensive satellites first to do more damage.)

Quote
Creature Bestiary. More Native units to wreak havoc would be awesome.

All the major roles seem to be covered, though, unless you have some suggestions.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 05:51:56 AM
Assembly? Ugh.  I think I dabbled in it back in the days of the Commodore 64. I really tried to understand it. But, it was so arcane and long and complex.

I had checked Scient's thread and I know he used a disassembler. I did not know he was going all hardcore machine language!

I was assuming that the Firaxis team would have at least used a higher programming language to actually build the game. Surely they used a modern (for that day) language like C for making it. Who would want to go through that much pain. I envisioned the SMAX code with process trees and marked for other members of the team to know what part was which.

The Orbital warfare deal really intrigues me. Now, I wish i had the perfect solution. But, unfortunately no other game that has been published has ever dealt with orbital warfare mechanics. SMAX is the only one with even a basic system. Even then, it is not much compared to the richness of the rest of the game.

I do agree with you on Sky Hydroponics labs though the purists (who more than likely are ALSO abusing Cloudbase Academy) are going to freak. I go a bit further. I still do not see why an advanced society would put farms in space even with unlimited energy just to ship back dirtside when most games still have lots of undeveloped land. Particulary if there are no orbiting massive manned stations/ colonies. Then, that would be a base facility as part of a "orbital base". Think the ISS but like Golden Rule out of Hieinlin's Cat Who Walks Through Walls. But - "bases" in space brings up once again UI modification issues.

Speaking of orbital, there was a board game that was published in one of these fanzines (1980s) the GURPs folks put out. It is the only example of a codefied set of rules for geostationary/low earth/ earth moon L2/ and lunar-earth warfare. All other space war rules tend to go interstellar. I am going to have to see if someone has an aging copy of that somewhere to see what they did and if there are some ideas to steal.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 06:08:31 AM
Oh yeah.. no need to worry about SMAC or SMAC ports.

Since GOG announced that the expansion is now part of the DL and that anyone that purchased will be able to re DL the expac for free, SMAC is now gone the way of vanilla Civ 4. No one mods or upatches vanilla Civ 4 or Warlords for that matter.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Kilkakon on December 21, 2012, 03:07:01 PM
Really about GoG SMAX? That's cool, means that my game is a bit less arcane.

As for machine language, it would have been written in C/C++ yeah, but as we don't have the source code, we have to use assembly to play with the exe.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 21, 2012, 04:09:01 PM
I had checked Scient's thread and I know he used a disassembler. I did not know he was going all hardcore machine language!

A disassembler turns machine language into assembly language; assembly language is essentially just machine code with something telling you what each instruction does.

Quote
I was assuming that the Firaxis team would have at least used a higher programming language to actually build the game.

MS Visual C++ , I believe.  But decompiling something that large is pretty much impossible, so without access to the source code the only option is to work in assembly.

Quote
The Orbital warfare deal really intrigues me. Now, I wish i had the perfect solution. But, unfortunately no other game that has been published has ever dealt with orbital warfare mechanics. SMAX is the only one with even a basic system. Even then, it is not much compared to the richness of the rest of the game.

Personally, I feel that it's pretty decent for what's essentially just one minor facet of the larger game, but if there's something more detailed that you'd like to see, it may make the "later stuff" list.

Quote
I do agree with you on Sky Hydroponics labs though the purists (who more than likely are ALSO abusing Cloudbase Academy) are going to freak.

That's why it's something that's easy to mod; that way everyone who wants the game as originally constructed can have that, and everyone who wants a game that works as originally envisioned can have that.  You're sacrificing purity of mechanics for purity of gameplay (i.e. people playing as the game was originally meant to be played), which my style of purism is in favor of.

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I go a bit further. I still do not see why an advanced society would put farms in space even with unlimited energy just to ship back dirtside when most games still have lots of undeveloped land.

There are certain advantages to space-based stuff.  More light for farms, easier transportation, etc.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 05:57:27 PM
yeah.. a minor facet when it could be richer. But, minor balance and brainstorming would be a good place to start.

First off, let's look at transhumanist lit out there and see the different visions for orbital platforms and sattellites. Now, this is not an insistance or wanting... just me dreaming.

Sky Hydroponics Lab- I maintain the position food for land bases would not be grown in orbit. BUT- if you actually had BASES in orbit, it would be a base facility. After all, there are no workable tiles in space. Nor do I think Planet's moons have an atmosphere or any tiles that can be worked for nutrients unless you put a pressure on that tile. If anything aerospace complexes would have to ship nutrients UP and be given a PENALTY per orbital lab:) Almost all the transhumanist visions from the 1960s on up envisioned food grown in orbit to support those LIVING in orbit. Larry Niven in a 1980s short story even had one character joke to another on his way to an Earth-Moon L2 station with a hydroponics lab that liquor being shipped up cost as much as replacing a liver from drinking so much liquor! But, the Hydroponics Lab was a base - A moon mining base that caught material launched from a mass driver. They had several hundred hungry workers to feed!

Orbital Defense Pod. SDI/ aka Reagan's "Star Wars" had more applications than just nuke interception. It is the reason Gorby was raising hell. It was also a fearsome orbit to surface weapons platform! Now, you could say with advanced guidance, this could be done on ground, too. But, unlike ground, you are not getting the weapons in the sky with chaos infrantry.

Orbital Power Platform. Now, this is actually realistic AS IS. But, you forget that one of the reasons no one has done this yet in adddition to cost is this can be a formidable weapon, too! Instead of zapping power down to a substation, you could just zap entire cities! EMP blast, eat your heart out...lol. Now, one thing that could be done to further weaken Cloudbase is to unattach the bonus for Power Platform away from aerospace complexes. Instead, make the bonus from this come from some kind of substation facility. I would not want the juice being zapped down anywhere near my spaceports.

Geosynch Survey pod.

Anyone actually use these?  In a perfect world, A real "survey" sattelite would remove fog of war. You would place this in geostationary orbit around whatever region you wanted to keep track of.  Now, if you wanted a basic "whole world" map like what is revealed when you first launch any sattelite without revealing units, you launch it in a orbit that it eventually traverses much of the planet. For this reason, I refuse to play any future tech game with fog of war. Trust me, even in this age we know what is happening across the globe in every city in real time if we want.


Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 06:14:32 PM
Other Sattelites we (or at least in my raving madness) would love.

Probe team sattelite. Yeah.. why build what you can subvert. Think what the Transformer did to the sattelite in one of the Transformers movies. If you want to get fancy, you could have your own missions, too, in addition to taking over the sattelite or orbital facility.

Reasearch Station. Conducts experiments made better in a microgravity enviroment. SMAX's version of the ISS. Provides research.

Actual bases (cities) in the sky.

One other thing is not actually a platform, station, base, or sattelite would be debris. Particularly if Yang and Santiago go nuts and start blasting things out of the sky. When the Chinese blasted and old sattelite out of the sky, they created a huge cloud of debris that threatened other equipment up there! It has been suggested in the old Paladium Rifts world that even though the setting had futuristic weapons and mechs and such that there was no global communication or sattelites because of some ancient war that littered the orbit with thick space junk clouds. This would be a huge concern.

You could also be devious. Imagine Yang bringing down a orbital city on top of UN HQ! Talk about atrocity!

Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 06:27:12 PM
Triple post.. but I am on a roll.

Secret Project: Space Elevator. No. It should be a facility you can build. A VERY, VERY expensive one- but able to built nonetheless by any base meeting the latitude requirement. Problem is - and why I think the space elevator could cause issues for any empire - is it would be a very ripe target for terrorism. Blow that thing up, you could have a supersonic thousands of mile long nano carbon cord destroying everything in a random straight line as hit hits ground at worst. Yeah. As Roze, the Space Elevator is the first to go if she sees it! Authur C. Clark and others viewed this as a facility. Some paper I have seen even predicted multiples of these on low gravity worlds like moons and dwarf planets.

Enough. I get geegasms when I talk sci fi. Particularly sci fi war in near-mid future era.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 21, 2012, 06:57:29 PM
Sky Hydroponics Lab- I maintain the position food for land bases would not be grown in orbit. BUT- if you actually had BASES in orbit, it would be a base facility. After all, there are no workable tiles in space. Nor do I think Planet's moons have an atmosphere or any tiles that can be worked for nutrients unless you put a pressure on that tile. If anything aerospace complexes would have to ship nutrients UP and be given a PENALTY per orbital lab:) Almost all the transhumanist visions from the 1960s on up envisioned food grown in orbit to support those LIVING in orbit. Larry Niven in a 1980s short story even had one character joke to another on his way to an Earth-Moon L2 station with a hydroponics lab that liquor being shipped up cost as much as replacing a liver from drinking so much liquor! But, the Hydroponics Lab was a base - A moon mining base that caught material launched from a mass driver. They had several hundred hungry workers to feed!

Why would it not be possible to use hydroponics on satellites to grow plants in 24-hour sunlight and a controlled environment for food?

Quote
Orbital Defense Pod. SDI/ aka Reagan's "Star Wars" had more applications than just nuke interception. It is the reason Gorby was raising hell. It was also a fearsome orbit to surface weapons platform! Now, you could say with advanced guidance, this could be done on ground, too. But, unlike ground, you are not getting the weapons in the sky with chaos infrantry.

So you think it should be usable to attack ground targets?  I think that would just be too unbalancing from a game perspective...it does, however, have the capability to attack other satellites.

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Orbital Power Platform. Now, this is actually realistic AS IS. But, you forget that one of the reasons no one has done this yet in adddition to cost is this can be a formidable weapon, too! Instead of zapping power down to a substation, you could just zap entire cities! EMP blast, eat your heart out...lol.

Again horribly unbalancing.

Quote
Now, one thing that could be done to further weaken Cloudbase is to unattach the bonus for Power Platform away from aerospace complexes. Instead, make the bonus from this come from some kind of substation facility. I would not want the juice being zapped down anywhere near my spaceports.

So have a separate facility to serve as an aerospace complex for Power Transmitters.  Could be possible, though if you're dealing with enough larger balance issues to make it the biggest one left then the Power Transmitter would actually be one of the weaker satellites (as while it is important for research or an economic victory, it doesn't help you support more population to use more satellites, and doesn't help much with building satellites.)

Quote
Anyone actually use these?  In a perfect world, A real "survey" sattelite would remove fog of war. You would place this in geostationary orbit around whatever region you wanted to keep track of.  Now, if you wanted a basic "whole world" map like what is revealed when you first launch any sattelite without revealing units, you launch it in a orbit that it eventually traverses much of the planet. For this reason, I refuse to play any future tech game with fog of war. Trust me, even in this age we know what is happening across the globe in every city in real time if we want.

Ban the "sensor under the base" trick, and this becomes its replacement.

Probe team sattelite. Yeah.. why build what you can subvert. Think what the Transformer did to the sattelite in one of the Transformers movies. If you want to get fancy, you could have your own missions, too, in addition to taking over the sattelite or orbital facility.

How would that work (I've never watched Transformers)?  Just subvert other satellites?  Interesting idea, but without any "distance to HQ" concept it'd be very difficult to balance so it's neither too weak nor two strong.

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Reasearch Station. Conducts experiments made better in a microgravity enviroment. SMAX's version of the ISS. Provides research.

So a satellite to boost research?  Seems to me the Power Transmitter has that function fairly well covered already.

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Actual bases (cities) in the sky.

That'd change gameplay so much that you're better off just making a new SMAC-inspired game (thereby also avoiding all the difficult coding involved.)

Quote
One other thing is not actually a platform, station, base, or sattelite would be debris. Particularly if Yang and Santiago go nuts and start blasting things out of the sky. When the Chinese blasted and old sattelite out of the sky, they created a huge cloud of debris that threatened other equipment up there! It has been suggested in the old Paladium Rifts world that even though the setting had futuristic weapons and mechs and such that there was no global communication or sattelites because of some ancient war that littered the orbit with thick space junk clouds. This would be a huge concern.

You write it as a mechanic, and it may be implementable.  But remember that this is a game first, so ideas aren't worth much unless they have mechanics involved.

Triple post.. but I am on a roll.

Secret Project: Space Elevator. No. It should be a facility you can build. A VERY, VERY expensive one- but able to built nonetheless by any base meeting the latitude requirement. Problem is - and why I think the space elevator could cause issues for any empire - is it would be a very ripe target for terrorism. Blow that thing up, you could have a supersonic thousands of mile long nano carbon cord destroying everything in a random straight line as hit hits ground at worst. Yeah. As Roze, the Space Elevator is the first to go if she sees it! Authur C. Clark and others viewed this as a facility. Some paper I have seen even predicted multiples of these on low gravity worlds like moons and dwarf planets.

Most of the bonuses are faction-wide, so making it a facility causes balance problems.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Kilkakon on December 22, 2012, 05:11:41 AM
How about we give satellites armour and weapons, and put them in the workshop?

Perhaps seperate out the aircraft and spacecraft parts of the aerospace complex to two different facilities?

All too complex without exe editing, those things, though.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 22, 2012, 07:15:26 AM
How about we give satellites armour and weapons, and put them in the workshop?

Perhaps seperate out the aircraft and spacecraft parts of the aerospace complex to two different facilities?

All too complex without exe editing, those things, though.

You have read my mind. Before I got offline, I started thinking just about that. It would have to have a rocket chassis and would give something more interesting to make than just a misslie with different reactors.

Yitzi.. do not worry. I know a good majority of these things are dreams and unrealistic to implement. Hell, I was considering jumping on CFC or Firaxis forums about it for Civ 6 or a third Civ 5 expansion. No one has done future tech right. The Civ series really needs to update how they handle these things and it's space based warfare in particular. We live in a time that we will see a majority of these things in our lifetime.

Now, you mentioned that most of these things would be better served in a SMAX - inspired game. I agree because of coding. I agree. However.. there IS one loophole for any future project I think could be exploited to add cool stuff like this. Basically an external program. Thing is, no one I do not think has thought of it. It still may not work.

Let me explain. SMAX outputs and recieves information, if you set it that way, to TCP-IP. This information I think contains all current game data. It works (in theory) by tricking the game into thinking it is playing MP then altering game information and sending it back. You could have an external program get all this data and add the orbital/moon-planet stuff on top of it. Of course, it will have it's own AI that reads what the game AI is doing and cooperates with it. It could also send information that affects the map and world in game and vice versa to the external program suborbital world. Units could be erased from SMAX and put into the external program. The advantage is that you have the code in whatever programming language you are profecient at and the community has the source code. Disadvantage is, I may totally be ignorant and wrong and this could never work.

But anyways. I love talking dreams.

But- back to reality.

*Yeah. Sensor under base is an EXPLOIT. Pure and simple.
*Let me think for a second in game terms about orbital debris clouds. Some real life sattelites DO have a limited amount of propellant to be able to boost to get out of this. In game terms, this probably is handled out of game. Still, I like the mechanic and most sattellites are sitting ducks. Maybe set up that for every debris cloud there is a percent chance equal to the number of clouds a random sattelite gets destroyed. Orbital defense platforms can take out these clouds. Maybe there is a way for ground missile to do this too.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: JarlWolf on December 22, 2012, 09:59:52 PM
Trust me, even in this age we know what is happening across the globe in every city in real time if we want.

We have instant communication technology yes, but we don't have omniscience for even our planet yet. And there is ways to scramble or distort a Satellites communication as well, and provide cloaking measures. As for SMAC/SMAX though (most likely SMAX) the technology would be apparent, but I think that with the ultra detailed satellite mapping allowing basic omniscience, there would be disruptions due to solar flares, or even some form of GPS scrambling technology.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 23, 2012, 12:39:07 AM
How about we give satellites armour and weapons, and put them in the workshop?

Making them just a different chassis?  That would be essentially a different game, though, it'd be better to design a game from the ground up to be able to include satellite warfare.

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Perhaps seperate out the aircraft and spacecraft parts of the aerospace complex to two different facilities?

This could probably be done with exe editing...keep it in mind for when someone asks for submissions for exe editing goals.

Let me explain. SMAX outputs and recieves information, if you set it that way, to TCP-IP. This information I think contains all current game data. It works (in theory) by tricking the game into thinking it is playing MP then altering game information and sending it back. You could have an external program get all this data and add the orbital/moon-planet stuff on top of it. Of course, it will have it's own AI that reads what the game AI is doing and cooperates with it. It could also send information that affects the map and world in game and vice versa to the external program suborbital world. Units could be erased from SMAX and put into the external program. The advantage is that you have the code in whatever programming language you are profecient at and the community has the source code. Disadvantage is, I may totally be ignorant and wrong and this could never work.

The problem is that the game stores its own information until you save it; you'd need something that can modify the information in SMAX, and at that point you might as well just build your own SMAX clone (if necessary, have it check for ownership of SMAX itself to avoid copyright issues), and use that.  Your idea would probably be more work than doing the whole thing from scratch.

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*Yeah. Sensor under base is an EXPLOIT. Pure and simple.

It's on the list of things to be banned by the rules of SMAX 1.5.

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*Let me think for a second in game terms about orbital debris clouds. Some real life sattelites DO have a limited amount of propellant to be able to boost to get out of this. In game terms, this probably is handled out of game. Still, I like the mechanic and most sattellites are sitting ducks. Maybe set up that for every debris cloud there is a percent chance equal to the number of clouds a random sattelite gets destroyed. Orbital defense platforms can take out these clouds. Maybe there is a way for ground missile to do this too.

So destroying a non-cloud satellite creates a cloud, and each cloud attacks a random satellite with a certain chance of success, and destroying the cloud again would get rid of it?  Doesn't really seem that realistic (if the orbital defense platform can take out the cloud, then it could have done so when originally attacking the satellite), and could result in a point where the clouds make all satellites impossible (as they destroy more satellites and proliferate as fast as they can be destroyed), but it might be codable.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Green1 on December 23, 2012, 10:29:16 PM
Yeah. You do bring up some good points. I have always wanted the orbital/ moon/planet stuff to have been expanded on. But, then again to really do it justice would be extensive. It would be best to totally start again with another engine with support . Nice to know what we can and cannot do. But, can you blame us nerds for wanting more complexity and dreaming?

Well, to start, I think it is time for the Cloudbase Academy and it's connection to orbital cheese to be lessened. I still think Cloudbase should be the word for guys that love big air. But all those minerals and nutrients? My proposal: Cloudbase should still give you all the aerospace complexes to make your air units uber and help you versus folks dropping drop troopers into unguarded bases. But, receiving power and nutrients and minerals is a bit too much. Either tie that ability to another existing facility or add another. Once again, though you are looking at UI. It would be really cool to have a on/off switch for this rule in game under options to please any purist sandboxers who do SP and do not care about balance.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 23, 2012, 10:58:55 PM
Well, to start, I think it is time for the Cloudbase Academy and it's connection to orbital cheese to be lessened. I still think Cloudbase should be the word for guys that love big air. But all those minerals and nutrients?

Well, part of my plan for SMAX 1.5 will be to severely depower satellites, so that'll help a lot with that even without the air/space split.

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My proposal: Cloudbase should still give you all the aerospace complexes to make your air units uber and help you versus folks dropping drop troopers into unguarded bases. But, receiving power and nutrients and minerals is a bit too much. Either tie that ability to another existing facility or add another. Once again, though you are looking at UI.

Actually, there you wouldn't be.  Unlike the civ series, there's no "city view", so all you'd need to do is add the functionality to one of the "blank" facilities...probably not extremely easy, but feasible without bothering with the UI.

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It would be really cool to have a on/off switch for this rule in game under options to please any purist sandboxers who do SP and do not care about balance.

I figure the switch would determine whether an aerospace complex gives the satellite bonus, and then anyone who wants to play the old style can just disable the new "space" facility.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Lord Avalon on December 24, 2012, 03:26:23 AM
In "reality" a base could be built around a sensor, just as cities have developed around forts/castles.

What if in addition to being something a former can build, a sensor were also a base facility, and therefore something a base could put up after being established, and something which a probe team could sabotage?  Possibly also something that has a chance of being taken out by artillery or air strike, because it's sensitive equipment on an exposed tower.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Yitzi on December 24, 2012, 05:04:14 AM
In "reality" a base could be built around a sensor, just as cities have developed around forts/castles.

What if in addition to being something a former can build, a sensor were also a base facility, and therefore something a base could put up after being established, and something which a probe team could sabotage?  Possibly also something that has a chance of being taken out by artillery or air strike, because it's sensitive equipment on an exposed tower.

What you're describing seems a lot like renaming the Geosynchronous Survey pod and putting it lower on the tech tree.
Title: Re: Community "Unofficial" expansion
Post by: Lord Avalon on December 24, 2012, 05:48:50 AM
Ha, go figure.  I never build those.  But why shouldn't a base be able to build sensors?  And if it needs a tech, it should be a beginning one.
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