Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Nightgaunt on November 25, 2012, 06:49:47 PM

Title: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Nightgaunt on November 25, 2012, 06:49:47 PM
Genejack Factories are the facility I understand the least in this game. I know the general attributes (more minerals, more drones) but I really don't know how to use these things. Do you always build them, do you only build them under certain conditions, do you avoid them entirely with particular factions?
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: t_ras on November 25, 2012, 07:27:41 PM
I avoid them. I like workers, so drones are a problem.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2012, 10:32:52 PM
If you're doing a serious mineral focus, and ecodamage is not a concern, they're probably worth it (with a tree farm, research hospital, fusion lab, energy bank, and hologram theater, the extra drone plus the maintenance comes out to only 2/2.25+2/2.5=1+31/45 energy cost, quite worth it.  If you're not producing a lot of minerals anyway, or the limiting factor is ecodamage, it's probably not worth it.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 26, 2012, 01:42:41 AM
I tend not to build them, as I think I have "enough" minerals from boreholes and crawling mines and forests in and outside of base radii, and don't want the extra drones.  On the other hand I haven't played a lot of games with strong erosive forces (which I'm starting to add).  I'm thinking if there are fewer places for mines (for me that means rocky), then maybe I look into building genejack factories.  Maybe there are more opportunities to borehole, but I don't build those outside of base radii (except maybe the off chance that I am preparing a base site).
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Flygon on November 26, 2012, 02:50:49 PM
I tend to build them, if I am confident I can handle the drones.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Kirov on November 26, 2012, 05:45:38 PM
I noticed that it's not the additional drone which is a problem, but the ecodamage issue. Well, at least under FM.

I don't build GJ factory in my best mineral bases, because they're already on the verge of serious ecodamage, and I don't build GJ in my energy bases, because what for, this additional drone will force you to replace one engineer with thinker.

As a result, only the average, support bases (for military etc.) get to build them.

But maybe I'm doing something wrong, I was never a fan of GJ.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Kirov on November 26, 2012, 07:01:51 PM
Also, GJ factory decreases the price of mind controlling your base, which is something you may want to take into account in your outpost bases.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on November 26, 2012, 07:37:51 PM
Genejack Factories are the facility I understand the least in this game. I know the general attributes (more minerals, more drones) but I really don't know how to use these things. Do you always build them, do you only build them under certain conditions, do you avoid them entirely with particular factions?

Pair them with Punishment Spheres. Otherwise, not worth the bother.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Kirov on November 26, 2012, 08:54:11 PM
Pair them with Punishment Spheres. Otherwise, not worth the bother.

Well, they are not that bad for drone management. At this level of the game one drone more is not that of a pain in your 14pop bases.

Come to think of it, GJ Factory simply comes to late for my taste. At this stage of the game you have always something better to build, like yet another chopper. Or yet another nuke. :)

Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Yitzi on November 26, 2012, 10:49:16 PM
Pair them with Punishment Spheres. Otherwise, not worth the bother.

Punishment spheres will do far more damage to your research than just cutting it by 10% and putting that 10% into psych (which will far more than compensate for the extra drone.)

Come to think of it, GJ Factory simply comes to late for my taste. At this stage of the game you have always something better to build, like yet another chopper. Or yet another nuke. :)

Of course, with mineral focus and without ecodamage being the limiting factor, spending on a GJ factory now means you can get 50% more choppers and nukes from that base in the future.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on November 27, 2012, 02:11:34 PM
Pair them with Punishment Spheres. Otherwise, not worth the bother.

Punishment spheres will do far more damage to your research than just cutting it by 10% and putting that 10% into psych (which will far more than compensate for the extra drone.)

Come to think of it, GJ Factory simply comes to late for my taste. At this stage of the game you have always something better to build, like yet another chopper. Or yet another nuke. :)

Of course, with mineral focus and without ecodamage being the limiting factor, spending on a GJ factory now means you can get 50% more choppers and nukes from that base in the future.

If you're building Punishment Sphere, you're probably pursuing a specific strategy, most likely Free Market with a massive Army... which is my favorite. :) The strategy was really a game changer for me once I discovered it.

But anything where you want to eliminate drone at the expense of nearly everything else.

Buy our cereal, or we'll kill you. :)
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Yitzi on November 27, 2012, 02:28:06 PM
If you're building Punishment Sphere, you're probably pursuing a specific strategy, most likely Free Market with a massive Army... which is my favorite. :)

Of course, your research will suffer horribly, pretty much all it gives you is a lot of cash for your war machine (and that's assuming energy focus or mixed focus and high Economy slider, which is the only case where it's worth it).  Which is useful when the ecodamage mechanic makes a serious mineral focus unfeasible...but if it's possible to go full-on in minerals (even if you have to drop FM to do it), that will give you a substantially larger army with no need for punishment spheres.

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But anything where you want to eliminate drone at the expense of nearly everything else.

Which means you're planning to win before the research lag hurts you too much.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on November 27, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
If you're building Punishment Sphere, you're probably pursuing a specific strategy, most likely Free Market with a massive Army... which is my favorite. :)

Of course, your research will suffer horribly, pretty much all it gives you is a lot of cash for your war machine (and that's assuming energy focus or mixed focus and high Economy slider, which is the only case where it's worth it).  Which is useful when the ecodamage mechanic makes a serious mineral focus unfeasible...but if it's possible to go full-on in minerals (even if you have to drop FM to do it), that will give you a substantially larger army with no need for punishment spheres.

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But anything where you want to eliminate drone at the expense of nearly everything else.

Which means you're planning to win before the research lag hurts you too much.

One important thing to remember with Free Market, you can generally build all the Projects much faster than the other factions.

Punishment spheres only hurt the lab output for a single base only, too.

If you're going to war with free market, you'll have a nasty, technologically advanced army (you'll have plenty of cash to do field upgrades on units with high morale) and you can steal all the tech you need.

With relatively few drones.

As far as ecodamage, just build all the "eco" things they have when a base starts to show eco damage. For example the Centauri Preserves are a must build with FM.

Incidentally, you don't build a Punishment Sphere at every base in Free market. What you do is build it at a single base,  build units and then transfer them over to that base using "set home base".

So one single base facility allows you to field a massive, powerful offensive military with few repercussions.

THe genejack factory is even better for increasing support output for that base.

The only drawback is eco damage, which is manageable.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Yitzi on November 27, 2012, 04:17:27 PM
One important thing to remember with Free Market, you can generally build all the Projects much faster than the other factions.

That's true if your energy advantage over them is far more than their mineral advantage over you (or you use exploits like crawler upgrading to finish projects with cash at a close to 1:1 basis).  But without using stuff like crawler hurrying/upgrading, you need 4 energy per mineral, so if Green has substantially lighter ecodamage limitations on minerals than Free Market (and that's a big if) a mineral focus with Green will be much faster at building projects (though not at getting the requisite techs) than Free Market can be.

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Punishment spheres only hurt the lab output for a single base only, too.

Of course that only works if you support your whole army from a single base, which of course creates a classic single point of vulnerability in your war machine.

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and you can steal all the tech you need.

Speeders+sensors=dead probe teams (and that's not considering artillery and defensive probe teams) unless you already have the advantage at your attack point.

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As far as ecodamage, just build all the "eco" things they have when a base starts to show eco damage. For example the Centauri Preserves are a must build with FM.

That still won't let you run 60 minerals in a base under FM; with a mod I'm working on, that will be possible with Green.  Though just for support it will work, unless the enemy identifies that base (not hard, I think enemy units show their home base) and spends what is needed to take it.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Kirov on November 28, 2012, 01:46:17 AM
If you're building Punishment Sphere, you're probably pursuing a specific strategy, most likely Free Market with a massive Army... which is my favorite. :) The strategy was really a game changer for me once I discovered it.

Same here, although what I also do pre-AMA is found a base and not let it grow and dump some crawlers there. Then the drone price of your entire army is precisely one doctor. :)

There is only so many units you can put in such a base, but fortunately you're running Wealth so your units are kinda expendable and you're actually fine with losing some of them every now and then.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Kirov on November 28, 2012, 01:53:33 AM

That still won't let you run 60 minerals in a base under FM; with a mod I'm working on, that will be possible with Green.  Though just for support it will work, unless the enemy identifies that base (not hard, I think enemy units show their home base) and spends what is needed to take it.

I never asked - how exactly are you planning to change things that are firmly hard-coded?

Second thing - are you sure you're taking into account all indirect results of your changes? Like the fact that you give mineral boost to Deirdre, already a very strong faction, and you make Believers weaker, already a shunned faction? That you can make Manifold Nexus on par with Monsoon Jungle? What about Tree Farms and other ecological facs, will they matter less or more?
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Yitzi on November 28, 2012, 03:36:31 AM
I never asked - how exactly are you planning to change things that are firmly hard-coded?

That's why the mod isn't done yet (and probably won't be for a while); I'll need to make a scient-style patch to un-hard-code them before I can make the mod itself, and since scient isn't available that means I need to figure out on my own how to do that.

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Second thing - are you sure you're taking into account all indirect results of your changes? Like the fact that you give mineral boost to Deirdre, already a very strong faction

I've heard that Deirdre is strong, but I've also heard (from a different source, of course) that she's very weak due to inability to run Free Market.
Furthermore, note that her current strengths lie largely with energy focus (the high efficiency), whereas the new strengths will favor mineral focus, so it's difficult to get full benefit from both.
In addition, it really only gives her a mineral boost when she runs Planned; with Green anybody can get minimum ecodamage, and she can't run Free Market.  And running Planned negates her other big advantage.  So the end results of major strengths and weaknesses are:
Strengths:
-Can get good growth via Planned with less sacrifice of mineral/energy than most.
-Good native hybrid faction.  (Dawn is better for native momentum.)
-Fairly good balance of minerals and energy.
Weaknesses:
-Unable to get as much out of energy focus as most factions.
-Poor momentum play when not going native (due to -1 morale).

The result is a fairly balanced faction which can do pretty well at anything, but can't keep up with a faction that plays fully to its strengths.

In terms of strengthening factions, the real beneficiaries are probably Cha Dawn and Yang, since they tend not to be good at energy focus anyway.

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and you make Believers weaker, already a shunned faction?

Believers really don't take that much of a hit.  -1 PLANET translates to +33% ecodamage when running Planned or Simple, +100% when running Green, and absolutely nothing when running FM.  So the Believers might not want Green as much as many, and will have more ecodamage than most.  Note, however, that if the Believers are on a war footing (the case where they do best anyway), they can have more minerals and just put some of their very high free support into extra fungicidal formers and empath/trance scouts to deal with the consququences of ecodamage.  (As for global warming, that often hurts their enemies more than them.) 
While my planned mod will mean that it starts to get uncomfortable (around 2 ecodamage per base) around min/base (improvements are more significant as compared to minerals by a factor of 5) equal to 1200/[techsX(3-PLANET)] (assuming centauri preserves, thinker or transcend difficulty, average native life, no perihelion), you're not going to have serious problems (around 10 ecodamage per base) until perhaps 5 times as much, which is fairly difficult to reach even for Believers not going Green.  Of course, with Market and a lot of techs, even 5 times as much might be only in the low 30s, which means that mineral focus under market is just begging for trouble.
Keep in mind...under the current system, the clean mineral soft cap is actually fairly hard, even running Green.  With my mod, the cap running FM will be almost twice as soft as it is now running Green.  And of course it places a limit on how much mineral focus you can do, but you don't lose the other FOP (well, except in that it forces you to cut back on the boreholes until Hybrid Forests, which I'm planning to move to the late game), you just have to put those FOP in other things.

The real hits are probably Domai, since he can't run Green, and Roze, since she'll want to run FM almost always anyway.

But why are Believers shunned?  They're actually fairly good as a momentum faction.  And running power/fundamentalist with command centers, their troops are only a monolith away from 187.5% attack effectiveness, making for an extremely nasty war machine (especially since with that setting they can maintain a huge army fairly easily).
Maybe it would help if you'd list the perceived strength of each faction, and why they're strong or weak.  I know that aliens and cyborgs are very powerful, and Cha Dawn is generally considered to be fairly weak, but other than that I don't really know that much.

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That you can make Manifold Nexus on par with Monsoon Jungle?

Should it not be?  They're both landmarks, why should some landmarks be more or less effective than others?  (Note, however, that I am also planning to make pop booms harder, which will of course weaken the Monsoon Jungle somewhat; the Manifold Nexus probably won't be on par with the old Jungle unless your empire is really big.)

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What about Tree Farms and other ecological facs, will they matter less or more?

Less in a large empire, because they won't boost clean minerals, but more in a small empire because there will be more minerals to be halved.  (Tree Farms are worthwhile anyway, for the economy and psych bonus.  Centauri preserve will be worth it for mineral-focus factions, not so much for energy-focus.)
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Kirov on December 02, 2012, 09:21:32 PM
It would take me a long time to describe pros and cons of each faction, so maybe another time, but I'm afraid they're far from balanced. The top three factions are Uni, Domai and Hive, and it's not just my opinion. Uni for techs, Domai and Hive because the INDUSTRY SE choice is widely considered to be the most important one in the game. If you give any kind of boost to Yang or Domai, you do the opposite of balancing.

I can list the factions in my personal order of strength, but it's really subjective the lower it gets. Particularly Sparta and Believers can be stronger in skilled hands, they're simply not really my style. This breakdown works for me, though.

Tier 1: Uni, Domai, Hive
Tier 2: Aki, Morgan, Deirdre
Tier 3: PK, Data Angels, Sparta, Believers
Tier 4: Pirates, Cult

I don't count Aliens, because nobody counts them. They're strong and unbalanced for MP games.
Title: Re: Genejack Factories...when to use them?
Post by: Yitzi on December 02, 2012, 11:01:36 PM
It would take me a long time to describe pros and cons of each faction, so maybe another time, but I'm afraid they're far from balanced. The top three factions are Uni, Domai and Hive, and it's not just my opinion. Uni for techs, Domai and Hive because the INDUSTRY SE choice is widely considered to be the most important one in the game. If you give any kind of boost to Yang or Domai, you do the opposite of balancing.

Well, I am planning to weaken the importance of tech slightly, so that will help with Uni (as will the fact that while it will technically be able to be able to pop boom, it will find it extremely hard.)  As for the importance of INDUSTRY...making production capability a mix of INDUSTRY and PLANET should help a lot on that count (especially with Domai, since he can't get positive PLANET until late game).  Discouraging the "lots of small bases" strategy for any but committed momentum players will also help, as INDUSTRY becomes less important when you don't need to build facilities in as many bases (units and formers are useful, of course, but for units MORALE can be more important than INDUSTRY unless you're going pure-defense, and pure-defense is highly vulnerable to attrition, and as for formers, after a point you start facing diminishing returns, especially before Clean Reactor becomes available.)  And of course I plan to weaken crawlers heavily (I'm thinking raising the module cost from 8 to 45, and saying you can't crawl boreholes until Industrial Nanorobotics), which will of course reduce the importance of INDUSTRY quite a lot.

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I can list the factions in my personal order of strength, but it's really subjective the lower it gets. Particularly Sparta and Believers can be stronger in skilled hands, they're simply not really my style. This breakdown works for me, though.

Tier 1: Uni, Domai, Hive
Tier 2: Aki, Morgan, Deirdre
Tier 3: PK, Data Angels, Sparta, Believers
Tier 4: Pirates, Cult

I don't count Aliens, because nobody counts them. They're strong and unbalanced for MP games.

I actually have an idea for balancing them.  The real brilliance of it (if it's ok for me to be that conceited) is that it uses the aliens' own strength as one of its major contributors, meaning that it can't make them too weak.  (The idea is simply to say that aliens cannot take part in an allied victory.  Thus, instead of being the factions everyone wants to ally with for an easy win, they're the factions everyone sees as a threat, and a major threat due to being so powerful, so coalitions will be formed to keep them down...until they're weakened enough that the threat can't sustain the coalition.)
And of course nerfing recycling tanks (an essential part of the anti-small-bases mod) will help reduce the power of aliens as well.
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