Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Kirov on November 14, 2012, 01:12:48 PM

Title: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on November 14, 2012, 01:12:48 PM

Yesterday I decided to give it a try to Morgan, a faction which I consider to be very powerful, but also very demanding to play. I found a Morganite scenario, which is here (“Market Forces”):

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1414.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1414.0)

and decided to win a “true” economic victory, i.e. by focusing on cash all the time, and not just cornering the market right before slaughtering the AIs old-fashioned way. I managed to build a decent enough empire, albeit not without problems (I had to concede PEG and ME to AI and it was impossible to avoid vendetta at all costs). I checked the price of cornering and it was 60k ec. Not that bad, I thought. After some time I was raking +1k EC at 80% ECON, so it looked quite feasible. But as I didn’t want to just hit the end turn button, I decided to solve some border issues by force. I took several bases and soon, much to my dismay, the price of cornering went up rapidly. As the AI was doing quite well, I convinced myself this is the effect of their population growth, etc. (weird as they actually kept exchanging nukes). To wear the opponents down a bit, I went for a full-scale war this time, bringing with me a lot of probe teams and mind controlling every second base.

Now, I know that the claim that cornering the market roughly equals the price of mind controlling every base on the map is BS, but I believed it is at least some point of reference. So if I just buy bases, the price of cornering should go down by ca the same amount, right? Then why the price kept skyrocketing proportionally to my advance? At one point the cornering cost more than 250k ec! Frustrated, I decided to take a closer look and lo and behold, it turned out that when you mind control a base, it actually increases the overall price of cornering, and this by no small amount (it may be well several thousands). I checked some other saves from SP games and it does seem like a general rule and not something scenario-specific.

So my first question/request is: Have anyone experienced anything similar? If not, can I ask somebody to duplicate this effect with their copy of SMAC? It's not gonna take long, and I;m quite seriously worried something is wrong with my SMAC. :( I mean come on, doesn’t it look like a bug? And one that is not even listed.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on November 14, 2012, 01:14:20 PM

Then I decided to do some digging and found… surprisingly little on the topic. I mean I understand that cornering the market is an exotic thing, but it seems nobody cared to even approximate the formula. :)  Does any of you have any details on the price of economic victory? After some reading and testing in the editor here are some results I arrived at (asterisked are those which require further testing):

Things that DO affect your price of cornering the global energy market:

-   your ECONOMY SE setting
-   your number of COMMERCE techs (six of them: Industrial Economics, Industrial Automation, Planetary Economics, Environmental Economics, Industrial Nanorobotics, Sentient Econometrics); the impact of those techs is considerable
-   your enemies’ number of COMMERCE techs; their impact is considerable as well
-   diplomacy status; if a faction is surrendered, its bases are the cheapest; the price rises for the pact of brotherhood, then treaty, then truce, which is at the same price as vendetta; what’s more, the settings not seen in the game but accessible in the editor (“I shall betray”, “I want revenge”, “I’m a victim of atrocities”) also seem to affect the price*.
-   the inherent Morgan’s COMMERCE bonus

The following factors also affect the mind control price, so it turns out there is some relation between cornering and mind control, but at this moment is hard for me to say to what extent:

-   your enemies’ amount of cash
-   drone riot status (it decreases the price, but not by the same amount as it decreases the mind control price)
-   GA increases the price
-   nerve stapling increases the price
-   distance from HQ (or in this case, the general spread of empires)
-   presence of certain facilities (I don’t have the exact list, but e.g. Children Creches and Research Hospitals increase the price, while Genejack Factory decreases it)


Things that DO NOT affect the price (contrary to the suggestions I found):

-   your PROBE SE setting
-   your enemies’ PROBE SE setting, either global or local (with covert ops)
-   your enemies’ ECONOMY SE setting
-   your Governor status*
-   the number of factions still in game*
-   map size


Also, the lowest possible price for economic victory seems to be 1.000 ec.* And if there is any base price which is later modified by the factors above, it sure does not equal mind controlling every base on the map* (but maybe because I checked this with Uni and Miriam in the game, I don’t know for all factions with 0 PROBE).

And the most important question of all – does anyone even care? ;) I know you could somehow sleep without knowing the formula for the economic victory and I find it hard to believe it could be useful in MP games, but still I’m struck by how little info I could find on this topic. I always thought the cornering is useless, i.e. too expensive, but I didn’t know that stuff like your overall diplomacy behaviour affects the final price. As it turns out, beating somebody into submission helps a lot, but if you go from treaty to vendetta just to grab several bases, it may actually increase the price. I believe it does add some flavour to this solution and makes it way more sophisticated.

On the top of that, I’m still thinking why mind controlling enemy bases increases the total price. I mean, there is nothing your enemies gain when you mind control them, and there is nothing you lose (apart from your cash, but that does not affect the price, obviously).

Any thoughts, gentlemen?

EDIT: updated with new info

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: ete on November 14, 2012, 03:17:47 PM

I don't know if I've done an economic victory other than in situations where I'd very clearly won already, and have not seen much info on it, but if you/someone does research and comes up with some formula I'd be very happy to put it into the datalinks upgrade.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Rymdolov on November 15, 2012, 02:58:27 PM

Well, this is very interesting! I've only gone for an economic victory once, but with this info I think it would be fun to try it again. It's not necessary to know the exact formula, but the info Kirov dug up is by far enough to build a strategy. Good job!  ;morgan; ;b;

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on November 16, 2012, 05:57:53 PM

So nobody is interested in the actual formula? :) I know cornering is not that useful, but still, it is a victory condition for our beloved game. I feel ashamed I haven’t thought of that before. :( Bad Kirov, treacherous, wicked and infamous.

OK, I guess it can wait for someone who’s less busy at a given moment (right now I’m sick and stuck at home, so it’s easy for me to say ;) ). I believe the formula might be quite complex and take into account many factors, and either includes the mind control formula or uses the same variables. I'm not able to develop the formula myself, I’ve never done it before and I’m also not that good with the editor (it gives me headaches and I’m quite sure one of us is inefficient), but I can help with finding out some correlations.

I’m updating my post above with the new info I found via the editor:

- the map size doesn’t affect the price
- I was wrong that COMMERCE technologies double or halve the price, the relation is much more complex than that; still, they have a huge impact
- GA increases the price, as per the mind control formula
- nerve stapling increases the price, as per the mind control formula
- distances from HQ affect the price, as per the mind control formula
- the inherent Morgan bonus decreases the price (I think by a lot)
- certain facilities present in bases also matter, as per the mind control formula


What strikes me is that it seems the post of Planetary Guv’nor doesn’t affect your price, although it should in my book (if the Morgan bonus and COMMERCE technologies do).

Is there any way to edit a faction’s Commerce rating in the editor?

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 01, 2013, 08:12:39 PM

Quote from: Kirov on November 14, 2012, 01:14:20 PM

-   your ECONOMY SE setting
-   your number of COMMERCE techs (six of them: Industrial Economics, Industrial Automation, Planetary Economics, Environmental Economics, Industrial Nanorobotics, Sentient Econometrics); the impact of those techs is considerable
-   your enemies’ number of COMMERCE techs; their impact is considerable as well
-   the inherent Morgan’s COMMERCE bonus

I think that what actually matters is just your (and their) COMMERCE rating (COMMERCE techs plus Morgan's bonus, plus the bonus you get for an ECONOMY rating of 3 or higher).  Thus, +4 ECONOMY with 3 commerce techs is the same as +3 ECONOMY with 4 commerce techs or +2 or less ECONOMY with 5 commerce techs, or +3 ECONOMY with 3 commerce techs as Morgan.

Quote

-   your enemies’ amount of cash
-   drone riot status (it decreases the price, but not by the same amount as it decreases the mind control price)
-   GA increases the price
-   nerve stapling increases the price
-   distance from HQ (or in this case, the general spread of empires)
-   presence of certain facilities (I don’t have the exact list, but e.g. Children Creches and Research Hospitals increase the price, while Genejack Factory decreases it)

I think the rules there are exactly the formula as for mind controlling the base; the cost is equal to the cost (excluding Probe modifier effects) of mind controlling every base that isn't yours, modified (not exactly sure how) by your COMMERCE rating, the base's owner's COMMERCE rating (or maybe just their commerce techs), and the relationship between you.

Quote

-   your enemies’ ECONOMY SE setting

How did you check this one?

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on February 01, 2013, 09:04:50 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on February 01, 2013, 08:12:39 PM

I think that what actually matters is just your (and their) COMMERCE rating (COMMERCE techs plus Morgan's bonus, plus the bonus you get for an ECONOMY rating of 3 or higher).  Thus, +4 ECONOMY with 3 commerce techs is the same as +3 ECONOMY with 4 commerce techs or +2 or less ECONOMY with 5 commerce techs, or +3 ECONOMY with 3 commerce techs as Morgan.

You're probably right, I wasn't sure how it works back then and didn't check. But yeah, if ECON, COMMERCE techs and Morgan bonus all affect it, it's probably just COMMERCE rating as it is. 

Quote

I think the rules there are exactly the formula as for mind controlling the base; the cost is equal to the cost (excluding Probe modifier effects) of mind controlling every base that isn't yours, modified (not exactly sure how) by your COMMERCE rating, the base's owner's COMMERCE rating (or maybe just their commerce techs), and the relationship between you.

It looks like that. At first I was distrustful to the idea that the "mind control everything" is indeed the basic cost. It comes from my discovery that actual mind controlling bases one by one actually increases the cost of GEM. But then I learnt that mind controlling one base also increases the price of subsequent mind controls in the same turns. So yeah, it makes sense again. Right now I think it works like you summed it up.

Still, there is something slightly wrong with the MC formulas we have, I just can't put my finger on it. Sometimes the amounts are off by some and I don't know why. Some time ago I created a test and all MC prices (of units, not bases) were rounded to 5 or 0. Since then I didn't have time to look at it more closely.

Quote

How did you check this one?

I don't remember, but it was probably by checking GEM price, then reloading one faction file, for example Hive into Morgan, and checking again. That would explain why I didn't notice commerce rating from higher ECON. A change from -2 to +1 yields no commerce bonus.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 01, 2013, 09:33:07 PM

Well, if it's been narrowed down to 3 elements for each faction (cost of mind controlling all their bases, their COMMERCE, and your COMMERCE), and presumably just adds the result of each faction (which seems to be supported by my own research), it might be feasible to actually find the formula.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on February 01, 2013, 09:48:54 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on February 01, 2013, 09:33:07 PM

Well, if it's been narrowed down to 3 elements for each faction (cost of mind controlling all their bases, their COMMERCE, and your COMMERCE), and presumably just adds the result of each faction (which seems to be supported by my own research), it might be feasible to actually find the formula.

The concept that it's only 3 factors is still an assumption and needs checking. For example, it must be verified how HQ is treated - it can be either as if there was no HQ (distance = 16?) or as if there was one in place, but didn't grant the MC immunity. Is there any other possibility? I may be missing something here.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 03, 2013, 12:28:48 AM

Quote from: Kirov on February 01, 2013, 09:48:54 PM

The concept that it's only 3 factors is still an assumption and needs checking. For example, it must be verified how HQ is treated - it can be either as if there was no HQ (distance = 16?) or as if there was one in place, but didn't grant the MC immunity. Is there any other possibility? I may be missing something here.

I believe it's treated as if there is one in place but doesn't grant MC immunity.  Not certain (my short attempt to check out the actual code was quite limited in accomplishment; that's some complicated code, though I suspect most of it is for calculating mind-control costs), but that's what I'd guess from what I saw.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 04, 2013, 12:01:50 AM

Ok, I  believe I have the complete formula:

-For each base, calculate the cost of mind controlling it, not counting the effects of PROBE rating.  HQ bases are calculated normally, but are still considered to have a distance-from-HQ equal to 1 (not 0 as one might expect.)
-This is then modified by four factors: Your commerce rating, the owner's commerce rating, the owner's relationship toward you, and the owner's grudges against you:
   -Your commerce rating is equal to the number of commerce techs you know, +1 if you're Morgan, plus whatever you get from your ECONOMY rating (+1 for +3 ECONOMY, +2 for +4 ECONOMY, and +3 for +5 ECONOMY.)  This value is squared, then add 1; the cost is divided by the result
   -The owner's commerce rating is calculated the same way; again, square and add 1, and the cost is multiplied by the result.
   -The owner's relationship toward you has an effect: If you have a treaty the cost is halved, if you have a pact the cost is divided by 4 (i.e. halved again after the treaty effect), and if the owner has surrendered (or you own the base) it doesn't count at all.
   -The owner's grudges also have an effect: If the owner wants revenge against you the cost is increased by 50%, and if the owner is a victim of atrocities on your part the cost is doubled (if both are true, it is still only doubled.)
-This is calculated for each base and added up.  If more than 1000 this is the cost of cornering the energy market; if it is less than 1000 then it only costs 1000 to corner the energy market.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on February 18, 2013, 02:51:54 PM

That's excellent work! How have you arrived at it, reading the files or through tests? I guess it's the former? Anyway, many thanks for that, I wanted to have this formula. I'm going to try and verify it at some point, but meanwhile, could you submit it to Planetary Datalinks, so that there's a Googleable version of this formula? I've been looking for it for quite a long time. Thanks again! Pity I've got too much RL on my plate right now and can't get back to SMAC at the moment, but I'll definitely want to test and use your findings.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 18, 2013, 03:16:06 PM

Quote from: Kirov on February 18, 2013, 02:51:54 PM

That's excellent work! How have you arrived at it, reading the files or through tests? I guess it's the former?

Actually, mostly the latter.  Reading the files gave me the insight that it is in fact a modification to the "cost to mind control" formula, and that it goes base-by-base, but beyond that was too complicated to figure out.  But between those and what you'd already worked out, I was able to do tests.

Quote

Anyway, many thanks for that, I wanted to have this formula. I'm going to try and verify it at some point, but meanwhile, could you submit it to Planetary Datalinks, so that there's a Googleable version of this formula? I've been looking for it for quite a long time. Thanks again! Pity I've got too much RL on my plate right now and can't get back to SMAC at the moment, but I'll definitely want to test and use your findings.

Ok.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: ete on February 18, 2013, 07:36:25 PM

I've added it to the wiki page in economic victory: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Victory_(Economic) (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Victory_%28Economic%29)

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on February 18, 2013, 11:01:40 PM

Many thanks to both of you! This small gap in our common knowledge bugged me somehow for a while. :)

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: kyrub on February 18, 2013, 11:48:56 PM

Nice info and work! I had no idea about this and I learned from it a few things. Congrats to all involved, esp. Yitzi.

Being a bit late to the party, I'll throw in my 2 cents:
- drone riots decrease the price by 50%
- golden age 200%
- if it used to be your base, it's 50%
- punishment sphere at the base, 50%
- children creche at the base, 50% (??)
- genejack factory at the base, 200% (??)

The last two factors seem mismatched. The genejack factory creates drones, so I would expect it to be lowing factor. Creche, the contrary, improving morale... Very strange.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 19, 2013, 12:07:25 AM

I think all of those are part of the mind control cost formula.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: ete on February 19, 2013, 12:30:39 AM

Where is the mind control formula? That'd be good to have on the wiki too.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: kyrub on February 19, 2013, 12:31:21 AM

@Yitzi
Sure, you are right, it's part of MC price. Sorry for intrusion - I was excited by your discovery.



Genejack factory <--> Creche bonuses.
According to the datalinks:

Quote

#; Genejack Factory
...
and increases vulnerability to enemy mind control.

Quote

#; Children's Creche
...^
Reduces base's vulnerability to enemy mind control.

Crazy. Another Children creches issue.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 19, 2013, 12:48:26 AM

Quote from: kyrub on February 19, 2013, 12:31:21 AM

@Yitzi
Sure, you are right, it's part of MC price. Sorry for intrusion - I was excited by your discovery.



Genejack factory <--> Creche bonuses.
According to the datalinks:

Quote

#; Genejack Factory
...
and increases vulnerability to enemy mind control.

Quote

#; Children's Creche
...^
Reduces base's vulnerability to enemy mind control.

Crazy. Another Children creches issue.

No, that's not an issue; it's part of the proper facility benefit.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: kyrub on February 19, 2013, 01:10:52 AM

It's a bug. Creches make it easier to control a base, Genejack factory makes it harder.

Quote from: kyrub on February 18, 2013, 11:48:56 PM

- children creche at the base, 50% (??)
- genejack factory at the base, 200% (??)

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 19, 2013, 01:34:23 AM

Ah, I misunderstood.  I'll look into it.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 19, 2013, 01:39:56 AM

Ok, I've looked into it and I have to say that it seems to work right for me: Genejack factories make it easier, creches make it harder, for both cornering and mind control.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kilkakon on February 19, 2013, 01:55:10 AM

I've won an Economic Victory in LE with 1000 gold before. And one for 220K. Catching it before it skyrockets is the trick. :|

And there's no Orbital Power Transmitters or anything like that in my game...

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Yitzi on February 19, 2013, 02:51:55 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on February 19, 2013, 01:55:10 AM

I've won an Economic Victory in LE with 1000 gold before. And one for 220K. Catching it before it skyrockets is the trick. :|

And there's no Orbital Power Transmitters or anything like that in my game...

Actually, LE is interesting in terms of economic victories; the most important feature is COMMERCE, and LE has a lot fewer COMMERCE bonuses as compared to Alpha Centauri, so there's going to be somewhat less variation.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: Kirov on February 19, 2013, 02:58:27 AM

Quote from: ete on February 19, 2013, 12:30:39 AM

Where is the mind control formula? That'd be good to have on the wiki too.

Yitzi also found it and published here:

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2761.msg14617#msg14617 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2761.msg14617#msg14617)

But I can say for sure that it is subject to further testing. In certain cases it only approximates the price, I don't know why.

@ kyrub: I'm positive that the CC bonus and GF penalty work properly, at least for MC.

Title: Re: Cornering Global Energy Market – a few interesting things
Post by: kyrub on February 19, 2013, 09:46:37 AM

Quote from: Yitzi on February 19, 2013, 01:39:56 AM

Ok, I've looked into it and I have to say that it seems to work right for me: Genejack factories make it easier, creches make it harder, for both cornering and mind control.

Ah, my mistake. I overlooked the fact that the distance (denominator) is halved, no the result.
My apologies, guys.

Anyway, back on topic:
In one of my test "spectator" games, I had Yang trying to win economically. But: I got announces about him starting the path to Cornering the global market every turn (and the victory was postponed by a year). It was annoying and it seemed odd. Also, the win never materialised, he won 50 later on Transcendence. Anyone saw something similar?