Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 11, 2022, 12:58:52 AM
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 11, 2022, 01:16:05 AM
For example, WTP makes unit type abilities (artillery, interceptor) free as they do not give flat bonus but merely requalify the unit. Whereas Clean Reactor ability should not be free as it equals to +1 mineral save per unit which is too much of economical impact. Etc.
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 11, 2022, 02:20:29 AM
Artillery, Air Superiority: That makes a lot of sense to me, I'll be making that change immediately.
Clean Reactor: If everyone benefits the same, what's the economic impact? The math isn't quite so simple, either. It depends on your support rating, too. Support costs become less impactful as the game goes on, anyway, because of increasing mineral yields/multipliers, the finite gameplay time, and how you're probably swimming in energy and pouring that into hurry builds.
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 11, 2022, 02:34:06 AM
There's also the qualitative reason: The Unit Workshop sucks, it's tedious to use, and it's hard to understand the price of things. It'd be nice to get rid of some complexity if it won't cause harm to gameplay.
I vote with two hands for simplification. However, I don't see how making abilities cost the same helps with any of the above problems.
People cannot not understand the cost because it is expressed in the mineral cost which varies depending on INDUSTRY rating. It would be cleaner to expressed them in mineral rows which is a fixed attribute of the unit itself not affected by faction SE state. That one thing is patched in WTP making it clearer to understand.
If you are talking about hidden complex formula then it could be patched too making it more transparent and simple.
What I am leading at is that the problem is there. You just attack it from wrong angle. Try to relax and think what exactly is the problem and how it could be changed. Don't just modify things left and right because you can.
Clean Reactor: If everyone benefits the same, what's the economic impact? The math isn't quite so simple, either. It depends on your support rating, too. Support costs become less impactful as the game goes on, anyway, because of increasing mineral yields/multipliers, the finite gameplay time, and how you're probably swimming in energy and pouring that into hurry builds.
You are jumping to conclusion there. It is not "everyone benefits the same" it is "everyone has equal opportunity to use it". Whether one employs this ability is a matter of strategical choice. The cost outweighs benefit so that it is not a no-brainer. It is probably wasteful to slap it on units you send to battle immediately as they would not live long to capitalize on it. And so on.
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 11, 2022, 03:55:45 AM
Try to relax and think what exactly is the problem and how it could be changed. Don't just modify things left and right because you can.
This is a rather startling admonition to avoid playing with alphax options coming from the creator of a mod that has made fairly drastic and far-ranging game mechanic changes because you can hack the binary.
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 11, 2022, 04:08:10 AM
😳
Your logical conclusion of "complex workshop" -> "equalize all abilities cost" seemed a bit like a blind shot. I just proposed to ponder on what exactly bothers you and brainstorm it together. Sorry for bad wording.
Post by: bvanevery on March 11, 2022, 04:36:14 AM
NO.
It shows rather much a lack of understanding of the game, to even suggest it. If someone thinks the game is too tedious to understand, I suggest they either play something else... or acknowledge that their goal is to simplify SMAC into some kind of "bare minimum" game that isn't SMAC. I've thought about "cut down SMAC" projects before, but I don't confuse that kind of project, for making mods that are basically attempts to improve the game as we know it. And since I did the "improve SMAC" project in spades, and made my name doing that, I really don't have a motive to do the work for a 2nd "cut down" project. Better to put the energy into a completely new from scratch 4X game.
What should the different costs be, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to contemplate. I've contemplated it for almost 4 years now. You can read what I think in my alphax.txt. Most of my abilities costs stabilized a long time ago. The only one I recently changed was Hypnotic Trance. I went back to it costing 0 when it's a defensive unit, like in the original game. I needed to nerf the mindworms. I also doubled its effectiveness.
Heck I'll make my opinions concrete and trivial to access:
Code: [Select]
#ABILITIES
Super Former, 1, EcoEng2, Super, 000000010111, Terraform rate doubled
Deep Radar, 0, DocInit, , 010000111111, Sees 2 spaces
Cloaking Field, 1, CentPsi, Cloaked, 000000111111, Invisible; Ignores ZOCs
Amphibious Pods,1,AdapDoc,Amphibious,000000111001, Attacks from ship
Drop Pods, 2, Fossil, Drop, 000000111111, Makes air drops
Air Superiority, 1, DocAir, SAM, 000000001111, Attacks air units
Deep Pressure Hull, 1, DocFlex, Sub, 000000111010, Operates underwater
Carrier Deck, 1, DocAir, Carrier, 000101101011, Mobile Airbase
AAA Tracking, 1, DocAir, AAA, 000010001011, +50% vs. air attacks
Comm Jammer, 1, Surface, ECM, 001010001001, +25% vs. fast units
Antigrav Struts, 2, Gravity, Grav, 000000111111, +1 movement rate (or +Reactor*2 for Air)
Empath Song, 1, HomoSup, Empath, 000010001111, +25% attack vs. Psi
Polymorphic Encryption, 1, Poly, Secure, 000001111111, x2 cost to subvert
Fungicide Tanks, 1, EcoEng, Fungicidal, 000000010111, Clear fungus at double speed
High Morale, 4, Disable, Trained, 000000001111, Gains morale upgrade
Heavy Artillery, 0, Chaos, Artillery, 000010001001, Bombards
Clean Reactor, 2, None, Clean, 000001111111, Requires no support
Blink Displacer, 4, Thresh, Blink, 000000001111, Bypass base defenses
Hypnotic Trance, -1, Neural, Trance, 000011001111, +50% defense vs. Psi
Heavy Transport, 2, DocFlex, Heavy, 000100100111, +50% transport capacity
Nerve Gas Pods, 2, Physic, X, 000010001111, Can +50% offense (Atrocity)
Repair Bay, 1, NanoMin, Repair, 000100100111, Repairs ground units on board
Non-Lethal Methods, 1, PlaNets, Police, 010000001001, x2 Police powers
Slow Unit, 0, Disable, Slow, 000000111111, -1 moves
Soporific Gas Pods, 4, SentRes, Gas, 000000001111, -2 Enemy morale vs. non-native
Dissociative Wave, 4, TempMec, Wave, 000000001111, Fizzles special abilities
Marine Detachment, 1, AdapDoc, Marine, 000000001010, Capture enemy ships
Fuel Nanocells, 2, NanoMin, Nanocell, 000000111100, Increased air range
Algorithmic Enhancement,1, HAL9000, Enhanced, 100000100111, Halves probe team failureNote that if I made something cost 4, I also probably made it so late in the game, that you'll never actually use it. Not if you intend to win the game as quickly as possible. I call that sort of thing, "soft retirement". It's still there for people who like to sandbox.
People cannot not understand the cost because it is expressed in the mineral cost which varies depending on INDUSTRY rating. It would be cleaner to expressed them in mineral rows which is a fixed attribute of the unit itself not affected by faction SE state. That one thing is patched in WTP making it clearer to understand.
And another solution, which I did in my mod and anyone can do in theirs, is not have INDUSTRY in the SE table. I don't believe in it. It's overpowered. I let the Free Drones have +1 INDUSTRY as their faction bonus and that's it. Any human player playing a faction, they never make any decision about INDUSTRY. Shuffling back and forth to get a better deal on Secret Projects was an extremely tedious play mechanic. In my mod, it's gone. One size fits all. Except the Free Drones, who take their discount. Your costs might change between games, but during the same game, everything is the same.
Post by: bvanevery on March 11, 2022, 04:44:41 AM
This is a rather startling admonition to avoid playing with alphax options coming from the creator of a mod that has made fairly drastic and far-ranging game mechanic changes because you can hack the binary.
I vouch for the conscientiousness of Tim's work. And my own.
"Make nearly everything cost 0" is not conscientious. Unless your goal is to make "cut down" SMAC. Kind of like I heard "Civ Revolutions" on XBox was simplified Civ. Never played it.
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 11, 2022, 11:11:02 PM
Mmm. Sorry. Didn't mean to boss you around or admonish.
😳
Your logical conclusion of "complex workshop" -> "equalize all abilities cost" seemed a bit like a blind shot. I just proposed to ponder on what exactly bothers you and brainstorm it together. Sorry for bad wording.
Well I didn't say "equalize all abilities cost", though. I said mostly free, and even further qualified it by "maybe just defensive abilities."
Let's just go down the list and I'll tell you what I think about each one. I have to make a second post because for some reason what I did isn't cooperating with this forum software.
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 11, 2022, 11:16:45 PM
Code: [Select]
Super Former, 1, EcoEng2, Super, 000000010111, Terraform rate doubledSuper Formers come pretty late for their effect to have much of an impact. It's likely most of your terraforming has already been completed. Free.Code: [Select]
Deep Radar, 0, MilAlg, , 010000111111, Sees 2 spacesAlready free.Code: [Select]
Cloaking Device, 1, Surface, Cloaked, 000001111001, Invisible; Ignores ZOCsMostly useless, particularly in single player. Free or remove. It'd be nice if the AI would use it to make sneak attacks.Code: [Select]
Amphibious Pods, 1, DocInit, Amphibious,000000001001, Attacks from shipRemove for reasons discussed elsewhere.Code: [Select]
Drop Pods, 2, MindMac, Drop, 000000111001, Makes air dropsExtremely powerful in human hands. Maybe even make it more expensive?Code: [Select]
Air Superiority, 1, DocAir, SAM, 000000001111, Attacks air unitsChanges function of unit into something less flexible. Make free.Code: [Select]
Deep Pressure Hull, 1, Metal, Sub, 000000111010, Operates underwaterUseless, free or remove.Code: [Select]
Carrier Deck, 1, Metal, Carrier, 000101101010, Mobile AirbaseUseless or I don't play big enough maps to justify it, free or remove.Code: [Select]
AAA Tracking, 1, MilAlg, AAA, 000010001011, x2 vs. air attacksNeedlejets (and anyone brave enough to play against Copters) are very powerful. Make free, at least to defenders, to make Needlejet spam more costly.Code: [Select]
Comm Jammer, -1, Subat, ECM, 000010111001, +50% vs. fast unitsRover assaults are very powerful. Make free, at least to defenders, to make rover spam more costly.Code: [Select]
Antigrav Struts, 1, Gravity, Grav, 000000111001, +1 movement rate (or +Reactor*2 for Air)Extra movement point, particularly for infantry, is powerful. Keep a cost.Code: [Select]
Empath Song, 2, CentEmp, Empath, 000010001111, +50% attack vs. PsiOnly useful on the attack, but 2 is probably too expensive for the bonus it gives. Psi attacker already gets an advantage.Code: [Select]
Polymorphic Encryption, 1, Algor, Secure, 000000111111, x2 cost to subvertDoes anyone use this? Free or remove.Code: [Select]
Fungicide Tanks, 1, Fossil, Fungicidal,000000010111, Clear fungus at double speedLike Super Formers, comes late and by then forests will be spreading all over fungus. May also help the AI if it's free. Make free.Code: [Select]
High Morale, 1, Integ, Trained, 000000001111, Gains morale upgradeCould be valuable depending on the faction? Keep a cost.Code: [Select]
Heavy Artillery, -7, Poly, Artillery, 000010001001, BombardsChanges function of unit into something less flexible. Make free.Code: [Select]
Clean Reactor, 2, BioEng, Clean, 000000111111, Requires no supportStill unconvinced this is really that useful unless you have crazy support issues or no minerals. I'd like to see actual calculations.Code: [Select]
Blink Displacer, 1, Matter, Blink, 000000001111, Bypass base defensesNever really used these, lol. Seems very powerful, probably should be more expensive if only to limit the player.Code: [Select]
Hypnotic Trance, -1, Brain, Trance, 000010111111, +50% defense vs. PsiAI could use these in the early game, and Thinker even gives away the prototype for Trance Scouts. Free?Code: [Select]
Heavy Transport, 1, Disable, Heavy, 000100100111, +50% transport capacityNah.Code: [Select]
Nerve Gas Pods, 1, Chemist, X, 000011001101, Can +50% offense (Atrocity)Only useful on the attack. Powerful but with an economic/ecological cost. Should cost something.Code: [Select]
Repair Bay, 1, Metal, Repair, 000100100111, Repairs ground units on boardUseless. Free or remove.Code: [Select]
Non-Lethal Methods, 1, Integ, Police, 000000001001, x2 Police powersMight as well be free since you're probably using a 1-1-1 cop unit, which Thinker even provides.Code: [Select]
Slow Unit, 0, Disable, Slow, 000000111111, -1 movesn/aCode: [Select]
Soporific Gas Pods, 1, Bioadap, Gas, 000001001101, -2 Enemy morale vs. non-nativeI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems really powerful?Code: [Select]
Dissociative Wave, 2, CentPsi, Wave, 000000111111, Fizzles special abilitiesI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems gimmicky and situational but pretty powerful in the right hands?Code: [Select]
Marine Detachment, 1, AdapDoc, Marine, 000001001010, Capture enemy shipsI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems gimmicky and situational?Code: [Select]
Fuel Nanocells, 1, MatComp, Nanocell, 000000111100, Increased air rangeI don't use SMAX stuff. Just enable antigrav struts for air. +1 net movement seems incredibly weak.Code: [Select]
Algorithmic Enhancement,1, NanoMin, Enhanced, 100000111111, Halves probe team failureI do use this one. Giving it away for free might help the AI use Enhanced probes against the owner of the HSA?
Post by: bvanevery on March 11, 2022, 11:56:15 PM
Super Formers come pretty late for their effect to have much of an impact. It's likely most of your terraforming has already been completed. Free.
No way. You are showing a really pronounced play style bias here. I've generally got all sorts of rails to drive all the way across Huge maps.
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Code: [Select]Cloaking Device, 1, Surface, Cloaked, 000001111001, Invisible; Ignores ZOCsMostly useless, particularly in single player. Free or remove. It'd be nice if the AI would use it to make sneak attacks.
The AI will use it for sneak attacks if you create predefined units for it. I've used them in a lot of releases of my mod, and those sneak units can be very annoying for the human player. The problem is deciding on a unit configuration that has an acceptable cost, that the AI will actually build, and that is profitable for the AI to deploy in force. Because the stock AI is likely to obsess about producing predefined units. Currently I have only:
Code: [Select]
Cloaked R-Laser Speeder, Speeder, R-Laser, Scout,0,0,0, CentPsi, -1, 10000000000000000000000000000100I don't think I've seen this get used much in the real world, because Centauri Psi is pretty far up my tech tree now. Pretty much late game. I used to have Cloaking Device a lot earlier in the game, in fact the Aliens got it immediately, because I considered it that useless. AI obsessions caused me to eschew making it available so early. Also you can't very well give the Aliens the early ability, and a predefined unit that actually uses it, because that would typically give away a chassis and weapon prototype. Which a human player could then reverse engineer, skipping various techs. That pushed me to making the ability come later. Maybe now I have it too late and should reevaluate it.
Sneaking unarmored Impact Infantry, and sneaking Recon Rovers, are pretty effective annoyances.
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Code: [Select]Drop Pods, 2, MindMac, Drop, 000000111001, Makes air dropsExtremely powerful in human hands. Maybe even make it more expensive?
Not powerful without orbital insertion, which should be late game anyways. I don't see a reason to make things a super PITA for players who have already been playing the game for a long time.
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Code: [Select]Air Superiority, 1, DocAir, SAM, 000000001111, Attacks air unitsChanges function of unit into something less flexible. Make free.
It's not "less flexible", it has a different purpose. You can't use a plain Penetrator to attack an air unit. Making this a "weapon purpose selection" that costs 0 could be fine though. I should probably evaluate this. Especially since I recently added a minimum cost air defense unit:
Code: [Select]
Laser Tactical, Needlejet, Laser, Scout, 4,0,0, Fossil, -1, 10000000000000000000000000100010Quote
Code: [Select]Deep Pressure Hull, 1, Metal, Sub, 000000111010, Operates underwaterUseless, free or remove.
It's not useless in a multiplayer game.
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Code: [Select]Carrier Deck, 1, Metal, Carrier, 000101101010, Mobile AirbaseUseless or I don't play big enough maps to justify it, free or remove.
Your personal map preference isn't a reason to remove something from a mod. Not unless you intend to eliminate other map sizes from your mod, so that people have to play on the size of map you specify.
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Code: [Select]AAA Tracking, 1, MilAlg, AAA, 000010001011, x2 vs. air attacksNeedlejets (and anyone brave enough to play against Copters) are very powerful. Make free, at least to defenders, to make Needlejet spam more costly.
I made the Needlejet chassis more costly. I really don't see Needlejet spam in my games. I wonder if I made it too expensive.
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Code: [Select]Comm Jammer, -1, Subat, ECM, 000010111001, +50% vs. fast unitsRover assaults are very powerful. Make free, at least to defenders, to make rover spam more costly.
That's what cost=-1 actually means. However, I don't agree with it. I made it flat out cost=1, and reduced it to a +25% bonus.
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Code: [Select]Empath Song, 2, CentEmp, Empath, 000010001111, +50% attack vs. PsiOnly useful on the attack, but 2 is probably too expensive for the bonus it gives. Psi attacker already gets an advantage.
Empath Song is way, way too powerful. +50% is a huge bonus. I reduced it to +25%. However I also only have it cost 1. Its main value is as a weapon selector. If you have a big expensive gun, but there's a mindworm or spore launcher defender in the stack, it'll make the expensive gun completely useless. Empath Song makes it so the mindworms and spore launchers don't usually become defenders, so your big gun is actually worth something. It's similar to R-Laser idea.
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Code: [Select]Polymorphic Encryption, 1, Algor, Secure, 000000111111, x2 cost to subvertDoes anyone use this? Free or remove.
I've given it to the Cyborgs as a free faction ability in one of my versions, can't remember what I'm doing nowadays. I'm totally unexcited about this ability. It's clutter and removal would be a reasonable idea. Don't know if multiplayers feel differently.
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Code: [Select]Fungicide Tanks, 1, Fossil, Fungicidal,000000010111, Clear fungus at double speedLike Super Formers, comes late
Doesn't have to. You're a modder, you have a choice about this. Mine come early midgame, and well before Super Formers. You have to pay for them. Getting rid of fungal barriers is an actual strategic concern, especially for factions who want to go Capitalist (my Free Market).
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and by then forests will be spreading all over fungus.
Not if the player didn't bother to plant forests. Don't assume your personal play style.
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Code: [Select]High Morale, 1, Integ, Trained, 000000001111, Gains morale upgradeCould be valuable depending on the faction? Keep a cost.
Get rid of it. It disrupts the play balance, making it too easy to goose the combat power of a unit, instead of learning techs and training at Command Centers.
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Code: [Select]Heavy Artillery, -7, Poly, Artillery, 000010001001, BombardsChanges function of unit into something less flexible. Make free.
I do have it as a simple "weapon selector" and additionally, I have it flat out cost 0. I don't really see the point in making sure artillery is slow and unarmored.
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Code: [Select]Clean Reactor, 2, BioEng, Clean, 000000111111, Requires no supportStill unconvinced this is really that useful unless you have crazy support issues
All stock AI factions have crazy support issues at the beginning of the game, because the cities have no throttle code on their use of SUPPORT. Left to their own devices, they exhaust SUPPORT quickly. I make Clean Reactors available at the beginning of the game to save the stock AI from its stupidity. If you are binary modding, you have better potential solutions available, but you'd have to code them somehow. My hack actually works.
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Code: [Select]Blink Displacer, 1, Matter, Blink, 000000001111, Bypass base defensesNever really used these, lol. Seems very powerful, probably should be more expensive if only to limit the player.
I "soft retired" it.
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Code: [Select]Hypnotic Trance, -1, Brain, Trance, 000010111111, +50% defense vs. PsiAI could use these in the early game, and Thinker even gives away the prototype for Trance Scouts. Free?
Please note the cost=-1 designation and its implication.
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I allow them, pretty early in the game. Sure it's useless for ships. More useful for Drop Transport land units for orbital insertion combat.Code: [Select]Heavy Transport, 1, Disable, Heavy, 000100100111, +50% transport capacityNah.
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Code: [Select]Nerve Gas Pods, 1, Chemist, X, 000011001101, Can +50% offense (Atrocity)Only useful on the attack. Powerful but with an economic/ecological cost. Should cost something.
Yes I fairly recently decided it's too good to just have cost=1. I bumped it to 2.
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Code: [Select]Repair Bay, 1, Metal, Repair, 000100100111, Repairs ground units on boardUseless. Free or remove.
I haven't used them in eons. Generally too tedious to be arsed with.
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Code: [Select]Non-Lethal Methods, 1, Integ, Police, 000000001001, x2 Police powersMight as well be free since you're probably using a 1-1-1 cop unit, which Thinker even provides.
You're a modder. You do not have to make unarmored infantry units have trivial giveaway costs with any weapon or ability. I pulled that off in the stock binary, no coding required. You pay for things you want.
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Code: [Select]Soporific Gas Pods, 1, Bioadap, Gas, 000001001101, -2 Enemy morale vs. non-nativeI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems really powerful?
soft retired
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Code: [Select]Dissociative Wave, 2, CentPsi, Wave, 000000111111, Fizzles special abilitiesI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems gimmicky and situational but pretty powerful in the right hands?
soft retired
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Code: [Select]Marine Detachment, 1, AdapDoc, Marine, 000001001010, Capture enemy shipsI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems gimmicky and situational?
Actually very useful for Pirate home defense.
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Code: [Select]Fuel Nanocells, 1, MatComp, Nanocell, 000000111100, Increased air rangeI don't use SMAX stuff. Just enable antigrav struts for air. +1 net movement seems incredibly weak.
I almost never remember to use this, nor do I care. Partly this is because my Needlejet chassis is more expensive. I'm more likely to invade by rails, which is way easier than flying planes around.
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Code: [Select]Algorithmic Enhancement,1, NanoMin, Enhanced, 100000111111, Halves probe team failureI do use this one. Giving it away for free might help the AI use Enhanced probes against the owner of the HSA?
The 1st step is to provide the stock binary with an Algorithmically Enhanced predefined unit. I've done that. But, fairly recently, and I'm not sure I've observed the stock binary actually making use of it. I think if you want to crack the HSA, you should have to pay extra to do that. Also, it makes the unit more survivable, which is useful against ordinary targets. I am against units getting automatic buffs just because they got farther along in the tech tree. I removed all the probe team base morale flag boosts, for instance.
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 12, 2022, 12:41:07 AM
I understand we are discussing vanilla as in other mods facts you are building your conclusions on could be different.
Code: [Select]Super Former, 1, EcoEng2, Super, 000000010111, Terraform rate doubledSuper Formers come pretty late for their effect to have much of an impact. It's likely most of your terraforming has already been completed. Free.
It comes at the end of terraforming tech chain: Ecological Engineering -> Environmental Economics -> Advanced Ecological Engineering. Each one in this chain brings some advanced terraforming capabilities: condenser, borehole, echelon mirror, raise terrain, soil enricher. These advanced terraforming improvement are quite expensive. To the level that I always start experiencing shortage of my former fleet when I discover and start constructing them. Super former comes at exactly right time. It is not much needed before Ecological Engineering but need starts growing and reaches the peak demand at Advanced Ecological Engineering. Assuming average advanced terraforming takes 15-20 turns it'll take somewhere 100+ turns to just cover 10 base tiles with advanced improvement with two regular formers. This is too long and it is much much longer than the time between Ecological Engineering and Advanced Ecological Engineering. Besides, there is endless war that requires to restore destroyed improvements around your bases then around captured bases then to build tubes all the way, etc. I don't quite understand why you state all terraforming has already been completed? Did it actually happened in your games all the time?
Everything above actually demands immediate former fleet upgrade to super formers. Moreover it saves on support. So there is no question whether to build or not to build it. It is always to build. That how useful it is. From that point of view - yes, it makes sense to make it free as everybody will be using it anyway. I guess increase in price is just a tribute to higher production power at the time.
Code: [Select]AAA Tracking, 1, MilAlg, AAA, 000010001011, x2 vs. air attacksNeedlejets (and anyone brave enough to play against Copters) are very powerful. Make free, at least to defenders, to make Needlejet spam more costly.Code: [Select]Comm Jammer, -1, Subat, ECM, 000010111001, +50% vs. fast unitsRover assaults are very powerful. Make free, at least to defenders, to make rover spam more costly.
Contrary to say such no brainer as super former, this one is a choice player has to make: use it facing large number of opponent air units or not, otherwise. Therefore, it should cost something to support this choice. Should make unit more economically effective against air units but less against others. Vanilla actually follows this guideline pretty nicely pricing such abilities at 25-50% of their effect.
Code: [Select]Polymorphic Encryption, 1, Algor, Secure, 000000111111, x2 cost to subvertDoes anyone use this? Free or remove.
It doubles cost of subversion in the field. Not too much of a benefit for the cost since AI does not subvert units too often but it should.
It grants another more beneficial positive effect. The cost of mind control grows tremendously with many units in the base when some of them PE!
WTP makes it even more pronounced.
Code: [Select]Clean Reactor, 2, BioEng, Clean, 000000111111, Requires no supportStill unconvinced this is really that useful unless you have crazy support issues or no minerals. I'd like to see actual calculations.
Why not draft these calculation yourself instead of waiting for someone else? This way you can prove it to yourself one way or another.
Code: [Select]Dissociative Wave, 2, CentPsi, Wave, 000000111111, Fizzles special abilitiesI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems gimmicky and situational but pretty powerful in the right hands?
Counter-ability ability. Fun on paper but nobody cared teaching AI this.
Code: [Select]Marine Detachment, 1, AdapDoc, Marine, 000001001010, Capture enemy shipsI don't use SMAX stuff. Seems gimmicky and situational?
bvanavery has opinion about it.
Code: [Select]Algorithmic Enhancement,1, NanoMin, Enhanced, 100000111111, Halves probe team failureI do use this one. Giving it away for free might help the AI use Enhanced probes against the owner of the HSA?
Another of must-have stuff. May as well be free as everybody would use it regardless of the price anyway.
Post by: bvanevery on March 12, 2022, 01:54:49 AM
Anyone know the answer off the top of their head? I haven't actually fought a land battle with "SAM" units in ages.
Post by: bvanevery on March 12, 2022, 02:03:02 AM
Another of must-have stuff. May as well be free as everybody would use it regardless of the price anyway.
That invalidates half the value of the Nethack Terminus.
I'm opposed to giving lotsa automatic upgrades just because you got to somewhere in the tech tree. Factions steal techs all the time. It shouldn't always be enough just to acquire tech. You should have to build stuff. Tech advantage and production advantage are distinct decisions.
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 12, 2022, 03:40:11 AM
Another of must-have stuff. May as well be free as everybody would use it regardless of the price anyway.
That invalidates half the value of the Nethack Terminus.
I'm opposed to giving lotsa automatic upgrades just because you got to somewhere in the tech tree. Factions steal techs all the time. It shouldn't always be enough just to acquire tech. You should have to build stuff. Tech advantage and production advantage are distinct decisions.
You are right but it is pretty damn difficult to justify the choice between then. I doubt even human can do that.
Post by: Geo on March 12, 2022, 01:16:27 PM
If a land unit has Air Superiority, and thereby gets named a "SAM" unit, does it have inferior land-to-land combat capability? If it's inferior, then Air Superiority can be viewed as simply "weapon mode selection" and 0 cost is justified. But if the land unit gets to have a big bonus against air and their land function is unharmed, then I think this should have the "costs extra on land" designation.
Anyone know the answer off the top of their head? I haven't actually fought a land battle with "SAM" units in ages.
From top of my hat, I'd say land units with the SAM ability don't lose their intrinsic combat capability against other land units. It only receives the big bonus against air units.
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 12, 2022, 03:22:37 PM
If a land unit has Air Superiority, and thereby gets named a "SAM" unit, does it have inferior land-to-land combat capability? If it's inferior, then Air Superiority can be viewed as simply "weapon mode selection" and 0 cost is justified. But if the land unit gets to have a big bonus against air and their land function is unharmed, then I think this should have the "costs extra on land" designation.
Anyone know the answer off the top of their head? I haven't actually fought a land battle with "SAM" units in ages.
From top of my hat, I'd say land units with the SAM ability don't lose their intrinsic combat capability against other land units. It only receives the big bonus against air units.
Not a bonus but just an ability to attack needlejets. Since it is not a bonus taking ability slot (which is quite needed for land units) is good enough price already.
Post by: bvanevery on March 12, 2022, 03:40:58 PM
You are right but it is pretty damn difficult to justify the choice between then. I doubt even human can do that.
There's nothing wrong with choosing a cheaper probe team that's disposable for the purpose of stealing tech. It's not like probe teams fail to steal techs. They can sabotage stuff over and over, they can steal money, they can cause drone riots.
Post by: Neil on March 12, 2022, 08:59:04 PM
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 12, 2022, 09:04:28 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 12, 2022, 09:06:52 PM
Modders are free to express their desires. They won't achieve relevancy with other people though, unless they publish their work, and the work has enough 'substance' to it, that people wish to keep playing with that work. Absent a serious level of deployment, it just becomes funzies game design experiment that uncommitted people quickly forget about. Fine for someone's individual learning curve. Like I can tell you that it's pointless going down this road, already been down roads like that in all kinds of other ways. But me telling someone something, doesn't really amount to much. People usually have to go try it all out for themselves.
Once upon a time I made a 'truck' unit, out of a speeder and a transport package. That was pretty early on. The AI had no idea how to use this unit. So why should I put it in front of the human player, to encourage them to use this exploit? I removed the predefined unit. Over almost 4 years, I've had a number of things like that. Nice ideas in theory, that suck when there's no AI that actually knows what to do with it.
Post by: Neil on March 12, 2022, 09:24:20 PM
I think people who want the "lots of stuff free" game are cheating themselves. The real desire is for an AI that actually uses amphibious assaults properly.
Yeah, that's not a secret lol. It's a compromise of dream and reality.
Post by: bvanevery on March 12, 2022, 09:43:52 PM
The reason I don't volunteer to do it, is I'm trying to put my energy into making a commercially viable 4X TBS game. I don't 'need' this feature badly enough in SMACX.
The problem is it's currently a mountain of difficulty. If some people were able to identify the relevant part of the code, via some hard work, then that might reduce the problem to a hill of difficulty.
Seems like the question would be, "Why aren't the Marines getting onto the Transports?" The stock binary makes Marines just fine. To a fault, really. They walk all over the place on land, and rarely are used in an appropriate place.
Post by: Neil on March 12, 2022, 09:53:11 PM
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 13, 2022, 05:09:42 AM
It comes at the end of terraforming tech chain: Ecological Engineering -> Environmental Economics -> Advanced Ecological Engineering. Each one in this chain brings some advanced terraforming capabilities: condenser, borehole, echelon mirror, raise terrain, soil enricher. These advanced terraforming improvement are quite expensive. To the level that I always start experiencing shortage of my former fleet when I discover and start constructing them. Super former comes at exactly right time. It is not much needed before Ecological Engineering but need starts growing and reaches the peak demand at Advanced Ecological Engineering. Assuming average advanced terraforming takes 15-20 turns it'll take somewhere 100+ turns to just cover 10 base tiles with advanced improvement with two regular formers. This is too long and it is much much longer than the time between Ecological Engineering and Advanced Ecological Engineering. Besides, there is endless war that requires to restore destroyed improvements around your bases then around captured bases then to build tubes all the way, etc. I don't quite understand why you state all terraforming has already been completed? Did it actually happened in your games all the time?
Everything above actually demands immediate former fleet upgrade to super formers. Moreover it saves on support. So there is no question whether to build or not to build it. It is always to build. That how useful it is. From that point of view - yes, it makes sense to make it free as everybody will be using it anyway. I guess increase in price is just a tribute to higher production power at the time.
I didn't "state all terraforming has already been completed". It's puzzling to me why you rephrase generalities I say into absolute black-and-white statements like that.
Anyway if you scroll down this page I'll link below, there's a very good explanation about why Super Formers aren't so super. There just isn't enough time in the game to make their Superness pay off. You've probably made much of your infrastructure (much, not all terraforming) with the standard Formers by the time you unlock the ability.
http://dos486.com/alpha/sparta/page2.shtml
Do you not build at least one former per base? Early on I only do some quick rolling tile improvement or forest planting, then I send the former from its home base on to the next base where it helps that new base's former. By the time my initial expansion is done, I have a horde of Formers that can backtrack and set everything up for a pop boom or growth to hab limits. When the advanced improvements get unlocked, I'll have enough to stack them for rapid construction. It's not like I'm building boreholes and condensers in every tile.
When I get Super Formers, I typically will build rovers for extra flexibility and then use a small number of those to keep up with damage or quick tweaks. It's more of a convenience for me than anything.
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Contrary to say such no brainer as super former, this one is a choice player has to make: use it facing large number of opponent air units or not, otherwise. Therefore, it should cost something to support this choice. Should make unit more economically effective against air units but less against others. Vanilla actually follows this guideline pretty nicely pricing such abilities at 25-50% of their effect.
I would say the cost (both in construction and support, ha ha) of having to build different units for different purposes is the cost. This could help the AI. The AI can't execute massive blitzs, we can. It'd be nice if they had more incentive to just build all those units so at least we'll get tripped up if they fill their bases with ECM and AAA garrisons without paying a premium. It doesn't matter much for humans because you probably have a lean defense outside of borders with your nastiest neighbors, right?
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 13, 2022, 05:35:13 AM
Crazy idea, but just putting out there: maybe a tiny number of select abilities could be free and automatically applied to units (without using an ability spot), upon researching the tech? For example, amphibious pods. Although conceptually I would prefer amphibious to be a non-free ability to add to units, considering the infrequent use and the trap it leaves for the AI (I've seen them build amphibious units but never seen an amphibious assault, so basically wasting resources), this could result in more amphibious attacks in the game and maybe at least shake things up a bit? I know this is probably a bad idea, but just a thought.
I mean one of my fantasies is to just add free Clean Reactors to every faction's text file and abolish the SUPPORT mechanic from the game, lol.
Post by: Geo on March 13, 2022, 11:36:00 AM
With the second one, you could start retiring the support bonuses from Social Engineering and faction files. That should only leave the odd support bonus one or the other Secret Project gives.
Post by: bvanevery on March 13, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I dealt with the value and non-value of SUPPORT a long time ago. Clean Reactors are available from the beginning of the game. The have cost=2, it's not a free lunch. You make a production speed vs. maintenance cost tradeoff, as to whether you want it. Socialist is the only SE choice in my mod that has a +1 SUPPORT bonus. 2 factions have a +1 SUPPORT bonus: the Believers and the Morganites. And that's it.
SUPPORT only matters in the early to early mid game. That's when minerals outputs for cities are fairly low, and the maintenance cost of units you're supporting seriously impacts your productivity. Once factions start making Genejack Factories etc, it doesn't matter anymore. That's why I moved Clean Reactor to the beginning of the game. In the original game, it has no benefit by the time it appears in the game. And, it helps with the AI's early game stupidity about SUPPORT.
Post by: bvanevery on March 13, 2022, 04:58:15 PM
Anyway if you scroll down this page I'll link below, there's a very good explanation about why Super Formers aren't so super. There just isn't enough time in the game to make their Superness pay off. You've probably made much of your infrastructure (much, not all terraforming) with the standard Formers by the time you unlock the ability.
http://dos486.com/alpha/sparta/page2.shtml
That's an awfully small map, that you're holding up as some kind of model of general play. It's just not relevant to the game in general. If you're on a bigger map, you're gonna spend more time building infrastructure before you go clobbering.
Do you even realize what an off-the-wall "oh you're done with Formers already" play bias that sounds like? It's like we're playing completely different games. Who knows, maybe we are. Do you have any After Action Reports of your games? Then we could at least evaluate "the play style where Formers aren't that relevant".
Most of the recent AARs on this site, I wrote them, so feel free to examine my use of Formers by way of comparison. I will say, I rarely do Echelon Mirrors. I almost never do Condensers, and I never do Thermal Boreholes. Sometimes I drill Aquifers if I've got nothing better to do. I don't raise terrain to try to "improve a hillside" because it's too random what happens. I do tend to make Soil Enrichers eventually, but it's often a "nothing better to do" thing.
My primary terraforming philosophy is "forest and forget". Other stuff is filling in the cracks, where forest isn't appropriate. I build rail networks.
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 13, 2022, 06:49:32 PM
I didn't "state all terraforming has already been completed". It's puzzling to me why you rephrase generalities I say into absolute black-and-white statements like that.
Sorry, man. I was typing by memory. Here is your exact quote.
Super Formers come pretty late for their effect to have much of an impact. It's likely most of your terraforming has already been completed. Free.
I admit I have replaced "most" -> "all" but, I guess, it didn't change the statement.
I agree that horde of existing former makes building super former not so imperative. I would not argue about this any further as it is not too important for me. When do you think is a good time to unlock super former?
Post by: Alpha Centauri Bear on March 13, 2022, 07:08:34 PM
QuoteContrary to say such no brainer as super former, this one is a choice player has to make: use it facing large number of opponent air units or not, otherwise. Therefore, it should cost something to support this choice. Should make unit more economically effective against air units but less against others. Vanilla actually follows this guideline pretty nicely pricing such abilities at 25-50% of their effect.
I would say the cost (both in construction and support, ha ha) of having to build different units for different purposes is the cost. This could help the AI. The AI can't execute massive blitzs, we can. It'd be nice if they had more incentive to just build all those units so at least we'll get tripped up if they fill their bases with ECM and AAA garrisons without paying a premium. It doesn't matter much for humans because you probably have a lean defense outside of borders with your nastiest neighbors, right?
Help AI managing the game is a valid argument but generic one, though. Obviously, it is much easier programming AI for feature poor game (tic-tac-toe) then feature reach one. Just by sheer efforts of processing these feature and their interrelations. Any simplification in rules lead to AI programming simplification. This applies equally to all features. Therefore, it is not very distinctive argument.
Again, I am all aware of AI helping rules simplification but this argument should not be mixed in pure feature balance discussion.
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 13, 2022, 07:23:49 PM
That's an awfully small map, that you're holding up as some kind of model of general play. It's just not relevant to the game in general. If you're on a bigger map, you're gonna spend more time building infrastructure before you go clobbering.
Do you even realize what an off-the-wall "oh you're done with Formers already" play bias that sounds like? It's like we're playing completely different games. Who knows, maybe we are. Do you have any After Action Reports of your games? Then we could at least evaluate "the play style where Formers aren't that relevant".
Most of the recent AARs on this site, I wrote them, so feel free to examine my use of Formers by way of comparison. I will say, I rarely do Echelon Mirrors. I almost never do Condensers, and I never do Thermal Boreholes. Sometimes I drill Aquifers if I've got nothing better to do. I don't raise terrain to try to "improve a hillside" because it's too random what happens. I do tend to make Soil Enrichers eventually, but it's often a "nothing better to do" thing.
My primary terraforming philosophy is "forest and forget". Other stuff is filling in the cracks, where forest isn't appropriate. I build rail networks.
The map size doesn't matter. On a larger map, you'll have more bases, and more bases means more Formers if you're building 1 per base. So it scales, everything except time because you always have the same amount of turns. Did you read the graph? It perfectly explains why getting your earliest Formers merked by a worm hurts so much, but later in the game you hardly notice if they get swept up in some death war.
You're using forest and forget, the least Former-turn intensive strategy there is. You're outright stating you don't build the most turn-intensive stuff and you only do some terraforming because you have nothing better to do. I actually terraform quite similarly to you. You clearly don't need Super Formers to power through some bottleneck of terraforming and are making my point for me, or the bottleneck is of your own making because you didn't build enough Formers early on. Building a mag tube blitz line to your enemies is a military tactic that you could still accomplish just fine with plain Formers, and I'm sure that the marginal extra cost of Super Formers doesn't really impact your ability to make the blitz all that much. So why make the ability cost anything at all? Or, if they're "super" important, why do you still have them costing the same as vanilla?
Post by: EmpathCrawler on March 13, 2022, 07:56:25 PM
I admit I have replaced "most" -> "all" but, I guess, it didn't change the statement.
I agree that horde of existing former makes building super former not so imperative. I would not argue about this any further as it is not too important for me. When do you think is a good time to unlock super former?
For it to have a significant effect maybe at level 4 or 5 maybe? I don't know. Industrial Automation may be a little too early, or maybe not.
Help AI managing the game is a valid argument but generic one, though. Obviously, it is much easier programming AI for feature poor game (tic-tac-toe) then feature reach one. Just by sheer efforts of processing these feature and their interrelations. Any simplification in rules lead to AI programming simplification. This applies equally to all features. Therefore, it is not very distinctive argument.
Again, I am all aware of AI helping rules simplification but this argument should not be mixed in pure feature balance discussion.
Helping the AI is incidental, but nice when it works out. This is where I started: "It seems like the limitation of only getting one or two abilities per unit is the cost [of an ability]." Even Firaxis themselves once thought abilities needed a baroque pricing system by the look of all those unused options and then backtracked into the present "eh make it 25%". I'm not going that much further than them to suggest that abilities mostly be free. The units themselves still aren't free.
Post by: Nexii on March 14, 2022, 12:38:21 AM
Caveat is that 2 abilities is quite strong and shouldn't come until later in the game. And a very few are too strong at free cost (mostly Wave/Sporific), rest are ok
Post by: bvanevery on March 14, 2022, 03:23:16 AM
The map size doesn't matter.
Uh, huh. Show me your AAR on a Huge map. I've got dozens.
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On a larger map, you'll have more bases, and more bases means more Formers if you're building 1 per base. So it scales, everything except time because you always have the same amount of turns.
You seem to have forgotten that distances on maps increase by a square rule. The relationship is not linear.
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Did you read the graph?
Nope. I've got countless years of data, and modding time, on when Formers are / aren't useful. They're mainly not useful when the number of them that you have, exceeds the speed at which they can move forwards over bad terrain. The hovertank chassis solves that problem, and the Xenoempathy Dome certainly mitigates it in many cases.
But now I'll indulge the reading of the graph. BRB. More to say in a 2nd post.
Post by: bvanevery on March 14, 2022, 03:42:39 AM
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Suppose the game lasts 100 turns,
In the core gameplay and modding universe I live in, that's ridiculous. Games on Huge maps don't end in 100 turns. They've barely begun at 100 turns. You might end a game at 350 turns if you're really really serious about it. 300 turns, I'm not sure it's doable. I'm not known for speed demoning, so maybe I've missed something over all these years, but it doesn't sound terribly doable. In my modding I've closed many exploits that might give someone a straighter path to victory.
I'm actually playing a game right now with the Believers, where I'm trying to remember the idea of "maximal quick destruction", just to see what I can do currently in my mod. They started on the Monsoon Jungle. Building up that immediate area, still seems like the greatest source of long term profit. My 1st victim could be the Pirates, because they're settled all around me. But, I also don't consider them much of a threat. Maybe I should go after someone farther afield, like the Hive. Maybe maybe maybe. It's MY 2168. Here's the world. BTW, I'm winning.
Believing in exploration |
Almost forgot, just met the University on the far side of the map, and they immediately declared war on me. I could go kill them. Bit of a sealift, this early.
You're using forest and forget, the least Former-turn intensive strategy there is.Forests cost 6 turns in my mod. I also plant them at a distance from each other, for the most part. I certainly do a lot of manual labor getting them done. Also, I do work farmland. Farm and a solar collector. I believe in balance of inputs. There comes a time when farms aren't that useful or important anymore, but it's much later, around when Super Formers are available.
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and you only do someterraformingsoil enrichers because you have nothing better to do.
FTFY
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or the bottleneck is of your own making because you didn't build enough Formers early on.
Deciding which bottleneck to quash, at any given moment, is core gameplay.
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Building a mag tube blitz line to your enemies is a military tactic that you could still accomplish just fine with plain Formers,
I really don't think you play on Huge maps much at all. That enemy on the other side of the world from you? You're using Super Formers.
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So why make the ability cost anything at all?
Because "what to quash" doesn't mean anything when you insist on a game of freebies.
Look are you just bored with the length of SMAC? Is that what all this "I want free stuff" is really about?
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Or, if they're "super" important, why do you still have them costing the same as vanilla?
For one thing, I'm using the stock binary AI. I'm not going to change things to the point that the AI doesn't want to pay for something. Not without a good reason.
For another thing, paying cost=1 ain't broke.
Post by: bvanevery on March 14, 2022, 03:56:39 AM
Caveat is that 2 abilities is quite strong and shouldn't come until later in the game.
I recently have totally opposite policy. 2 abilities come early in the game, and mostly you pay for them. The main driver of 2 abilities early, is wanting to nerf mindworms. Gotta make Trance something the AI will add to various units. Police with Clean Reactors is a secondary consideration.