One thing about SPs is their value changes a lot depending on map size, like EFFIC SE. If you have 10 bases the value is much different than 30. I do wish they had put some kind of map scaling for SPs like they did with tech.
The Command Nexus is strong, but 800 was way too much. Its 400 now.. but you are right that morale is strong. I wouldn't mind even 500 min cost there.
Note 4: There's one offender here: The Cloudbase Academy - its 1200 minerals. Now thats a lot and its not good. Bases with 30 minerals are rare - at this point there's no even Genejack Factory or it just gets available and its hard to get 20+ minerals due to ecological damage.
I played 4-5 full games and i could build Cloudbase Academy in every if i wanted. AI actually got much faster to tech than me and they can't finish the project anyway.
Suggestion 1: limit all non-broken projects to 800 mineral cost.. 1000+ is too much for AI.. if player gets ahead its ahead let it be. But on transcend and WTP not many can do that - i think i play at decently high level. One could object but there's no point.. making it expensive doesn't work as explained above.
Rushing with energy - 1. remove. 2. At least make it even more expensive. If the projects are cheaper in minerals - as they should be i think - then i would double the rushing cost to 8 energy per mineral.
- Cloning Vats (totally broken) you can leave it at tech 13 and put something normal like 1600 minerals. People can try it for fun.. it is fun.. it takes 16 turns for 100 mineral base someone will build it that way.
- The Bulk Matter transmitter (strong, not broken) - 2 minerals per base - i don't know why you rated this as 3000 minerals - its not that great. its 4-5 mineral per base with % bonuses, it hardly matters lategame.. this can as well be 800 mineral Tech 10 project - it will be fun to see AI gets it before player
- Clinical immortality (broken in sense game over literally) - double votes - just should be late.. once you click this its game over anyway.. you can make it expensive.. now if you want AI to be able to win ever.. price it 1000 minerals not more.
- The Cyborg Factory (strong, kind of broken) - elites everywhere - should be maybe C11, 12 where its now but at 800 cost its fun but it takes time to put to use.. build units and do warfare. There's no point in pricing it high - just place it late enough, tech 10 can be gotten relatively early.
- The Manifold Harmonics (strong, broken) - this should be 800 and at least tech 8-10 in my opinion.. maybe not if you nerf that fungus we discuss
- The Nano Factory - (50% upgrade, heal) - its really great project both healing and upgrades are awesome - you priced it only 400 min.. this should be 600 at least
- The Network Backbone (broken) - having it at D13 or where it is does the job. But then no need to price it more than 800-1000. You won't get to use it more than 10 turns or so
- The Self-Aware colony (very strong or broken) - i never built it actually - its so late.. no need to price more than 800-1000
- The Space Elevator - same as above
- The Telepathic Matrix (strong) - now this one is weird - it comes late but could be used a bit for fun. Its not really needed because everyone solved drones by this point. To put it to use one should scrap all Recreation Commons/Hologram theatres and will save some money. In that sense its not even broke.. it would be broken in midgame.. So I don't see why price this more than 800.. and it can be at tech 9-10.. no need to move it later.
- The Ascent to Transcendence (5000) - if AI won't rush it it should be much cheaper.. 2k or something like that.. its mostly clicking end turn. Someone might even lose the race but i doubt it.
First of all, I've increased their cost for a single purpose: to let factions compete for them more fierce. Discovering it first should not guarantee building it first. Less advanced but stronger economy should have a chance too. It seems I achieved it. However, some late game projects got too expensive. I should adjust them based on actual economical strength at the time.
That is actually strange why late projects seem so difficult to build as I assume later project will be build using crawlers with the combined empire strength. Looks like this is not the case.
Now when we are talking about human vs. AI then former will always be more cunning and will find more exploits. That is why AI is given raw economical advantage on tougher levels. The best way to level that is to teach AI to do the same. Like rushing SP with crawlers and money in this case. However, this is pretty tedious and difficult task and result is not guaranteed either. Wrong tuning may render AI stupider. SMACX AI is mostly single turn heuristics. It doesn't carry plans like multi turns SP rushing preparation, etc. In this regard the only option to help AI would be to disable crawler rush. I believe it is possible to teach it money rush since it is single turn operation. This disables whole empire participation in SP building which is sad. I always imagined how people across whole empire contribute to a single epic building.
Another option would be to limit crawler/unit rushing by some portion of initial cost: 50-40-30-20%. This way player can still concentrate whole empire efforts on it but for hefty penalty. Essentially, this translates to building SP faster but for double-triple price and corresponding economical impact. I think this is fair. SP hurry cost need to be increased too to match it.
Let me summarize it. We can allow external aid for SP building but with severe penalty to make project choice more fair. Let's say you have three equally productive bases. You can build three projects (one in each) at normal speed risking to not finish it in time or you can build just one and let two other bases contribute at 50%, thus, rushing it twice as fast. Proportion can be adjusted.
You may have researched it too early by luck. Cloudbase Academy is L10 and Genejack Factory is L6.
I agree it is too expensive and not that important. May reduce the cost of AC as well.
I plan to do that if we agree on reducing external help proportionally.;b;
I believe they are already quite expensive to buy. 800 minerals project is 2400 credits. That is like 20 turns savings in mid game. Especially when we nerf economy in general. I consider it to keep it at x4 for hurry cost and to reduce mineral contribution to 50% for all units and crawlers. Then crawlers will be no more important for SP mineral rush as you can do the same with units.
We can try it out and adjust hurry cost later if needed.
Yeah they are expensive at start and to midgame. Lategame there's so much energy i had 500+ per turn it goes up to 1000. So player can rush buy complete 800 min SP = 3200 energy; in 6-7 turns at 50% eco.
Crawler help to project at 50% their mineral cost. That makes it same as disbanding units including crawlers themselves.
SP hurry cost is x4 as now.
Teach AI to hurry SP.
Lower end game SP cost a little.
The Virtual World - This project is exceptionally good - on border of broken good. Usually you want Network node in every base. One good fix is to make Hologram Theatres cheaper a bit and cost less maintenance. They are 60/3 now and every base needs them. Hologram theatre is basically Recreation Commons + 50% psych. Psych is great for big bases.
It doesn't carry plans like multi turns SP rushing preparation, etc.
I believe it is possible to teach it money rush since it is single turn operation. This disables whole empire participation in SP building which is sad. I always imagined how people across whole empire contribute to a single epic building.
I hear you, man. However, it would be a revolution to implement something like that. Besides, it would not be easy just to correctly adjust their cost by map size. It would require tons of play testing. Unfeasible.
🙁
Agree. Actually, I was pondering whether I could nerf the project itself a little. Say to stop base size growth beyond nutrients/4. So one would need more than 4 nutrients per citizen to grow it further. Just a thought.
VW is quite strong because Holo Theatres are pricy for what they do.
I am using my way to calculate the price based on facility cost just to ease this weighting for myself. Otherwise, it would be just completely arbitrary judgement.
Hologram theater = 60/1The base cost is close to what I do, 50. You don't need to be so generous on maintenance. It removes 2 drones and gives +50% PSYCH bonus, it's ok to make people pay 2 to maintain it.
Virtual World = 800By the standards of my own mod this would be completely silly. I price the Cloudbase Academy and the Cyborg Factory that high. However my mod has factory, crawler, and borehole only coming late game. I don't know what the timing is like for your mod, because I gave up after mindworms trounced me. My gut feeling though is this is completely absurd, unless it's your design intent to stop anybody from ever completing a SP earlier in the game. In my mod, getting a 500 mineral project done mid-game is actually a challenge. For me that's the Planetary Energy Grid. You are unlikely to get all the important ones done, the AI factions are likely to complete some of them.
Basically the way i play the game is to spam colony pods up to a number and then grow cities. You can't grow cities past 3-4 really unless you have Hologram Theater.
With low pop its not safe to build special projects.False. The enablers you're looking for are 1) a minerals special on Rocky terrain, 2) a Nutrient special combined with forests, 3) cashing in Artifacts to speed the SP along, and 4) spending money gained from popping supply pods out in the hinterland. That said, my early SPs cost 300, not 800. A 500 mineral SP is somewhat challenging to get done in my midgame.
Sounds like you're too much of a spamming horizontal Infinite City Sprawl player. The Bureaucracy penalty is there to punish people like you.Hm i should probably try to change the style a bit - i locked myself into this playstyle trying to outspam thinker AI i think. B-drones are a pain ^^ expansion in waves is certainly an option. I blame Democracy - once you want to grow it removes free minerals from new bases so i want to finish expansion before switching. Democracy is not even that good in WTP with 1 growth, i was more in fundamentalism for industry bonus and war troubles.
False. The enablers you're looking for are 1) a minerals special on Rocky terrain, 2) a Nutrient special combined with forests, 3) cashing in Artifacts to speed the SP along, and 4) spending money gained from popping supply pods out in the hinterland. That said, my early SPs cost 300, not 800. A 500 mineral SP is somewhat challenging to get done in my midgame.
SPs should be a bit overpowered, this is the charm and a reward for beelining certain tech category, so I don't think it's a great idea to "balance" them like we are trying with regular stuff.
The problem araises only when the leading faction gotta catch them all, if they are are more distributed it just gives each faction some unique flavor.
So my gamist idea ( and SP are the most gamist thing in SMAC already ) is too keep the base cost of SPs more moderate but increase it by 25% for each SP a faction did build themselves.
I've just stopped to bother with even considering feasibility of actually implementing these ideas I'm throwing, it's not for me to judge ;)
Reduced SP cost a little. Let me know if not enough.Well looking forward to try it - some playtesting will be helpful. I have my doubts, costs are still over 1000 but anything near 1000 is in realm of possibility for AI so its improved. Depends on how well AI will rush - i'll try to playtest some quicker games and to observe if AI rushes projects now.
Released new version where AI hurry projects.
SPs should be a bit overpowered, this is the charm and a reward for beelining certain tech category, so I don't think it's a great idea to "balance" them like we are trying with regular stuff.
The problem araises only when the leading faction gotta catch them all, if they are are more distributed it just gives each faction some unique flavor.
So my gamist idea ( and SP are the most gamist thing in SMAC already ) is too keep the base cost of SPs more moderate but increase it by 25% for each SP a faction did build themselves.
I've just stopped to bother with even considering feasibility of actually implementing these ideas I'm throwing, it's not for me to judge ;)
QuoteReduced SP cost a little. Let me know if not enough.Well looking forward to try it - some playtesting will be helpful. I have my doubts, costs are still over 1000 but anything near 1000 is in realm of possibility for AI so its improved. Depends on how well AI will rush - i'll try to playtest some quicker games and to observe if AI rushes projects now.
Released new version where AI hurry projects.
Did you change crawler effectiveness? And did you teach AI to rush both with crawlers and energy? Or just energy and we presume AI rush already with crawlers?
Ok time to playtest. I argue for and against ;lol
If Ai gets too good new meta will be to let them build and take it by force.. there's that. Extreme version of that is ugly lets hope we don't get there - reminds me of some civilization games/version where its absolutely not good idea to build wonders - but to conquer them. Some you couldn't even hope to build before AI.
I think/hope these changes could be ok.. This will likely affect only mid to lategame where AI is weak and player takes over. Now if player can (at least sometimes) insta build rush and energy buy projects - its fair that AI do that sometimes.
I thought I made conquering hard in WtP. Are you still able to cut through AI defense easily on Transcend?Its hard ^^ and fun its good. No its not easy to cut through. Late midgame/lategame becomes easy - tedious because player gets those huge SPs.
Late midgame/lategame becomes easy.
I think general 4x AI does better with small empires. Once you get larger a human gets much stronger and can overcome the production deficits. It doesn't see the big picture the way a human can.
I once requested a sort of 'scaling up' AI bonus as the game went on from Yitzi. But I guess it would have been very difficult to implement. The idea was to make the bonuses mild at the start, so factions like Spartans don't just crush you right away. But scaling up so the game doesn't become trivial by the midway point
You know what, dino. Why am I defending this SP cost at all? It's not like it is some cornerstone of my mod. It is not something difficult to change either. This is all in txt configuration.
Just let me know what you want them to be and we be done with it. Even easier you can change them yourself in alphax.txt until you are satisfied and then send it over for me to merge into my release.
Any thoughts as why it becomes easy? Did you just economically outgrow them or they cannot withstand your tactics?
No I mean as the game progresses, by turn or techs. Not by difficulty level
You know what, dino. Why am I defending this SP cost at all? It's not like it is some cornerstone of my mod. It is not something difficult to change either. This is all in txt configuration.
Just let me know what you want them to be and we be done with it. Even easier you can change them yourself in alphax.txt until you are satisfied and then send it over for me to merge into my release.
It's fine, I was under impression that discussion is going toward increasing their costs even further.
It's your mod, don't design it completely by cometee. I'm unlikely to take it as it is anyway.
( but will try it again at some point for sure and I'm forever grateful for the changes to the combat you've made).
Someone always snowballs.
Its also tactics - because all those abilities give player edge. For example amphibious or drop make game easier - AI can't use it as well as player. Another one is mag-tubes.. i think AI should build magtubes even if player can use them, its lesser evil. Thinker disabled magtubes - i think thats mistake .. at least in WTP settings
One thing that turns struggle to easy in the end is op superprojects - and i found i could get them all because they are expensive.
I meant the same. Both you and AI grow exponentially. However, AI exponent base is bigger at higher level. So it outruns you more and more as game progresses. This is not a difference in speed but in acceleration. Meaning if it is twice ahead of you by turn 50 it will four times ahead of you at turn 100 and eight times at turn 150. It will double relative advantage every 50 turns. (number are just an example)
That's right. However, it was always difficult for me to snowball in Thinker. That is why I was curios how you beat it in every game. You might be more seasoned player than me.
Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.
I meant the same. Both you and AI grow exponentially. However, AI exponent base is bigger at higher level. So it outruns you more and more as game progresses. This is not a difference in speed but in acceleration. Meaning if it is twice ahead of you by turn 50 it will four times ahead of you at turn 100 and eight times at turn 150. It will double relative advantage every 50 turns. (number are just an example)
In practice the AI doesn't keep the same acceleration is what I'm saying. Its doubling rate slows down due to inefficiencies in play tactics. A lot of it is in how it manages military movement and support. And also when to build facilities and which facilities. Or when to run growth to boom or +2 ECON safely. Thinker I'm sure has improved this with the AI using advanced terraforming, but nonetheless the rate will degrade. Whereas a human can maintain their rate, which while at first is slower will eventually overcome the AI.
q: Hm why did you put The Manifold Nexus in build tech? Somehow to me makes sense its on explore branch. This is second time Drones get it and they can't really use it (to full potential). Once i saw Morgan get it. Seems weird. It might be better idea to put somewhere where Deirdre and Cha-Dawn can get it.
Remind me of what Sid Meier talked in that GDC talk.. they envisioned game where civilization rises and falls (as in history) and you are supposed to rise again. And what happened is that noone would play it because players quit or reload -_-. Lel.
Tech tree tuning and correct placement of all features is a very-very-very hard task. I believe it is now somewhat better than in vanilla (where it is a complete mess). However, I gave up doing it alone. Only if someone team up with me.
In other thoughts, I've seen no evidence that the Network Backbone is actually a powerful project. It sounds powerful, but I've never noticed my tech actually being boosted substantially for having built it. And I do of course do the "super capitol" thing.Yes good point, for example I've never build the project. We talk about thing as we know them, but some were never tried. I can see it giving like 100+ science - its strong. But then thats like one extra strong city (only energy..) - my best cities at endgame approach or go over that number. Maybe its not even op - but i never built it so i don't know. Thats why playtesting is the best way to try things. As alternative its possible to ramp up one city to high potential quite quickly in endgame - maybe even easier than to build this project if its highly priced.
In other thoughts, after 2 years of course I think my techs are in all the right places.This would be interesting to see. I still didn't try your mod - i got into this aar and wtp changes - but I'll see to try it sooner rather then later, it looks interesting.
Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.
Wow. Didn't know that. Probably I should enable them.
In other thoughts, I've seen no evidence that the Network Backbone is actually a powerful project. It sounds powerful, but I've never noticed my tech actually being boosted substantially for having built it. And I do of course do the "super capitol" thing.
Yeah its complicated it needs to be thought through,. Its just my initial observation - i didn't know if you had some special reason to place it in build branch. That said i've no idea if it would be better or worse if moved elsewhere :-[. I'll suggest something if i see that it could help. Its too early for me to give good advice.
The Manifold Harmonics SP was op - but it is out of the way of Planet factions so its nerfed that way balancing it. Basically chances are they won't build it, but they can conquer it. It also stops player from easily getting it. I've seen these factions use it to some potential with 0 or +1 positive rating - from what i've seen they won't switch to Green.. player can switch but there's big penalty in Green. When you take that into account this project loses on power.
Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.
Wow. Didn't know that. Probably I should enable them.
You have bad memory, you are being made aware of this at least third time ;)
Fixing one thing breaks others.
There won't be absolute perfections.
Therefore, I dropped all the unimportant conditions like "game lore" and "research path" because they are difficult to define.