Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on August 27, 2019, 01:33:05 PM

Title: Human Augmentation
Post by: Unorthodox on August 27, 2019, 01:33:05 PM
Listening on the way in today, seems science has finally cracked the code to brain controlled devices, and a new wave of human augmentation is in testing or even production.

From suits that allow paralyzed people to walk to new cameras that will allow blind people to see. 

But then, why stop there?  Suits could allow humans to lift extreme loads, run faster, etc.  The cameras are already better than 20/20.  Why not add recording and other features. 


Where do you draw the line?  Would you get augmentation if offered? 
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Lorizael on August 27, 2019, 02:32:31 PM
For a long while, only rich people and biojackers will engage in augmentation. Then, eventually, it will just be a kind of new normal, as opposed to "augmentation." We all ingest a stimulant every morning. We all offload our memories and knowledge to mini-computers. We all monitor our fitness with wrist computers. So yeah, at some point it will be mundane to pop nootropics like vitamins, or set your vision to continuous recording, or issue simple mental commands to the TV via your scalp reader. (I don't see most people undergoing invasive surgery just to "enhance" themselves.)
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Unorthodox on August 27, 2019, 02:52:04 PM
For a long while, only rich people and biojackers will engage in augmentation. Then, eventually, it will just be a kind of new normal, as opposed to "augmentation." We all ingest a stimulant every morning. We all offload our memories and knowledge to mini-computers. We all monitor our fitness with wrist computers. So yeah, at some point it will be mundane to pop nootropics like vitamins, or set your vision to continuous recording, or issue simple mental commands to the TV via your scalp reader. (I don't see most people undergoing invasive surgery just to "enhance" themselves.)

No stimulant for me.  No wrist computers, and I'm not sure what you're trying to reference by mini computers. 

But I see this a little more serious than I do various tech gadgets.  There's a vast difference in a job requiring me to understand how these tech gadgets work, or being trained in some kind of software and a job requiring I own an exoskeleton suit capable of XYZ.  And, yes, I see that coming down the line if (when) these things catch on.  It's not abnormal for your mechanic or construction personnel to have to supply their own tools here and safety gear here, and a suit could be right in line with that. 

Take the eyes.  Body cameras are becoming standard for police, but if everyone has eyes that can be downloaded, everything you see suddenly ceases to be entirely private. 
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: E_T on August 27, 2019, 04:44:44 PM
I imagine that around the same time that these mechanical enhancements become viable, they can also be paired (or possibly compete) with Bio-Genetic Enhancements."We are the Borg"...
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Lorizael on August 27, 2019, 05:21:18 PM
No stimulant for me.  No wrist computers, and I'm not sure what you're trying to reference by mini computers. 

Yeah, I also don't drink coffee in the morning and don't have a smartwatch, but I recognize that these are common or becoming so. By mini-computers I just mean smartphones. These devices are already replacing some of the tasks once performed by our brain. We don't need to know how to navigate; our computer does that for us. We don't need to remember birthdays; our computer does that for us.

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But I see this a little more serious than I do various tech gadgets.  There's a vast difference in a job requiring me to understand how these tech gadgets work, or being trained in some kind of software and a job requiring I own an exoskeleton suit capable of XYZ.  And, yes, I see that coming down the line if (when) these things catch on.  It's not abnormal for your mechanic or construction personnel to have to supply their own tools here and safety gear here, and a suit could be right in line with that.

I think it's more likely those jobs will lose the human part of the equation entirely.

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Take the eyes.  Body cameras are becoming standard for police, but if everyone has eyes that can be downloaded, everything you see suddenly ceases to be entirely private.

Oh yeah. Privacy's dead.
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Unorthodox on August 27, 2019, 06:50:45 PM
Yeah, I also don't drink coffee in the morning and don't have a smartwatch, but I recognize that these are common or becoming so. By mini-computers I just mean smartphones. These devices are already replacing some of the tasks once performed by our brain. We don't need to know how to navigate; our computer does that for us. We don't need to remember birthdays; our computer does that for us.

Fun anecdote.  On our recent vacation we were consistently without the phone navigation (or cell reception most times).  My wife and kids never learned to read a map, but I've always hated the phone as I grew up as the family navigator on our vacations with but a road atlas (I find maps extremely simple to understand but have come to terms with what seems to be a lot of people having difficulty).  Even when we had phone navigation in Seattle, the streets are so packed it would get confused which street we were on and I had to turn it off. 

No, I haven't adopted the "Smart" portion of the phone for much other than work email. 

Quote
But I see this a little more serious than I do various tech gadgets.  There's a vast difference in a job requiring me to understand how these tech gadgets work, or being trained in some kind of software and a job requiring I own an exoskeleton suit capable of XYZ.  And, yes, I see that coming down the line if (when) these things catch on.  It's not abnormal for your mechanic or construction personnel to have to supply their own tools here and safety gear here, and a suit could be right in line with that.

I think it's more likely those jobs will lose the human part of the equation entirely.

So long as architecture remains an art, you won't see machines doing it.  Even the cookie cutter houses that get built have subtle variations that require adjusting and modification on the fly.

We ran into this on our remodel, a machine took the inputs and decided on it's own to alter our architectural plans on our girder beam and trusses because it didn't like the drawings.  This caused all hell down the line we had to fix on site. 

Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: DrazharLn on August 27, 2019, 06:58:14 PM
There's a bunch of good sci fi on this kind of thing.

I like Charles Stross' Halting State series and Accelerando.

We sort of have the technology to make all these augmentations privacy respecting, but it would be a bit of a cultural shift for that to become the norm.

I think the cultural shift needs to happen if we want to avoid the oncoming panopticon or make it serve the needs of the many rather than the rich and powerful few.

I would get augmentations if I they were fully open source and under my control and they did something useful for me and they were shown to be reasonably safe. A brain-machine interface hacking on the senses and responding to forming thoughts or more conventionally to the motor cortex would be pretty sweet.

Software would take ages to sort out, but you could have a much more integrated exobrain, you could offload memory, but also mathematics like, I could look at a surface and generate an accurate heightmap, or at some data tables and see regression solutions.

If you were feeling bored, you could do style transfer from your favourite artworks onto your realtime visual inputs.

If interfaces improved a lot you could record and replay moments of inspiration and motivation, you could get a quantitative signal that you're becoming depressed or angry and you could write programs to counteract that directly or study the triggers or automatically suggest remedies.
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: DrazharLn on August 27, 2019, 07:02:40 PM
Machines can be quite creative now, and will get more so. I think manual labouring and caring jobs that are hard to automate because robotics is hard will last better.

Already many creative and planning tasks can be made easier with appropriate software. E.g. collaborative AI. Nicky Casey wrote an interesting essay about this a while ago. I think their blog is at ncasey.com
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Elok on August 27, 2019, 10:52:23 PM
Somebody on Poly used to have a sigquote that went something like "the most reliable prediction about the future is that it will be mostly like the past."  The main flaw in most predictions of the future, IMO, is failing to reckon with human needs, wants, and limitations; no, we're not going to do [extravagant and remarkable thing], either because it's too expensive or risky to be worth it or because we have a more efficient or practical way to achieve the same result.  Lori gave a good example; invasive surgery is probably always going to be dangerous and unpleasant, and many of the things you could accomplish with body mods could be accomplished more practically by outsourcing to a machine.  I could see exoskeletons maybe being useful for military applications, but once AI advances enough just having robotic soldiers would cut out the slowest and least durable components of any enhanced human warrior.
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: DrazharLn on August 27, 2019, 11:15:58 PM
We already have robot soldiers of a sort: https://xkcd.com/652/

I hope we never have the walking around type and that we get over this whole killing each other thing soon.

I think in the reasonably distant future people will have physical body mods for fun, but, yeah, robots are more practical.
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Unorthodox on August 28, 2019, 02:00:07 PM
Somebody on Poly used to have a sigquote that went something like "the most reliable prediction about the future is that it will be mostly like the past."  The main flaw in most predictions of the future, IMO, is failing to reckon with human needs, wants, and limitations; no, we're not going to do [extravagant and remarkable thing], either because it's too expensive or risky to be worth it or because we have a more efficient or practical way to achieve the same result.  Lori gave a good example; invasive surgery is probably always going to be dangerous and unpleasant, and many of the things you could accomplish with body mods could be accomplished more practically by outsourcing to a machine.  I could see exoskeletons maybe being useful for military applications, but once AI advances enough just having robotic soldiers would cut out the slowest and least durable components of any enhanced human warrior.

I disagree with your premise. 

We already have machines that can do a lot of heavy lifting more efficient and practically than hiring a couple grunts, but without fail, it's the couple of grunts that are going to load and unload that truck.  Because there is an art to it.  It can't just be programmed into a set routine.  And yes, I see a future where an exosuit that allows that grunt to lift even MORE being a thing long before I see robots making the millions of little decisions that goes into such an enterprise.  Whether it comes in the form similar to the Aliens forklift thing or a more personalized version is a little up in the air.   

I'd see similar benefits in construction work, for the same reasons. 
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: DrazharLn on August 28, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
I think robots controlled with a VR/AR rig will come sooner. But, yeah, exosuits at some point for specialised applications. Wouldn't want to predict whether they'll ever be mainstream for jobs
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Unorthodox on August 28, 2019, 03:37:26 PM
I think robots controlled with a VR/AR rig will come sooner. But, yeah, exosuits at some point for specialised applications. Wouldn't want to predict whether they'll ever be mainstream for jobs

Eh.  We can't even riddle out the satelite operated trains, and they are on rails.  A lot of this has to do with the civilian comm infrastructure.  Given the military infrastructure, yes, things become a lot more feasible as demonstrated with UAVs. 
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: DrazharLn on August 28, 2019, 05:17:02 PM
In London and elsewhere there are driverless trains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway). It's not so hard, really.

Civilian comms can be good enough if there is an incentive to do so. See, for example, the work on wireless VR. That's got impressive bandwidth and latency and was developed pretty quickly. Could imagine cables or repeaters from the workers to a last-few meters wireless connection to the robot.
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Unorthodox on August 28, 2019, 05:50:50 PM
Oh, there are driverless trains here with many caveats.  Fairly large areas are still completely off grid.  Those areas are typically the more difficult to navigate as well. 
Title: Re: Human Augmentation
Post by: Geo on August 30, 2019, 04:08:28 PM

Take the eyes.  Body cameras are becoming standard for police, but if everyone has eyes that can be downloaded, everything you see suddenly ceases to be entirely private.

Must be the wet dream in some security circles, everyone on mandatory eyesight enhancers where the data is directly uploaded in the security cloud.

Say hi to your spouse, but nothing else. ;)
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