Post by: bvanevery on February 27, 2019, 07:52:57 PM
I somewhat know how to play my own mod now. Wouldn't say I've completely mastered it, but I'm not exactly feeling challenged anymore. To be honest, I'm bored! I think there's lots of value in my work for other people who haven't tried it, but I myself have been on this project for 10 months. Not shocked if I'm falling asleep at times.
So, what happens if Induktio's "better brain" is stuck into my mod? Will it kick my ass? Or will it not make much difference? The reason I wonder is, for instance, my mod doesn't let you have Industrial Automation until late midgame, and that's assuming you were Build focused. Skunkworks, Supply Crawlers, and Thermal Boreholes all come with that tech. Maybe the Thinker AI assumes that building lotsa supply crawlers and boreholes is a game winning strategy. Maybe in my mod, it isn't.
I've installed a new copy of SMAC. Thinker development version 20190216 which was released February 16, 2019. SMACX AI Growth mod version 1.28, also released in February. The files don't conflict, so that doesn't create any issues. I will keep my eye peeled for any weirdness with what techs are discovered, as a long time ago, we had issues about how the tech discovery weights were interpreted. I hope that's been long since laid to rest.
I'm not altering anything in the Thinker .ini. Looking at it, the only thing that makes me wonder is:
Code: [Select]
; Set AI cost factors for mineral/nutrient production for each difficulty level respectively.
; All other difficulty level modifiers remain unaffected by this setting.
cost_factor=13,12,11,10,8,7I don't know what these do, or if these factors were in the original game.I will try the game "cold". I'm going to play it the usual way I play the test games for my mod, until / unless I'm getting my ass kicked. I will allow myself the foreknowledge that this AI might be "supply crawler and borehole heavy," and that sending scouts to disrupt them might be a good idea. It is worth noting, hovertanks are available much earlier in my mod. Mag tubes are also available from the beginning of the game, and is a primary conquest strategy IMO.
Otherwise, let's see if this AI is capable of surprising me, or threatening me. And, is it more surprising than what my mod already does? For instance, the Pirates are already peaceful pursuers of Wealth, with their giant moat. I have several modded factions that are economic powerhouses. I have a sense of how well they do compared to me, so let's see if this new AI changes the status quo.
Post by: bvanevery on February 27, 2019, 08:24:47 PM
I'm in the middle of a large, fijord-like land mass. I can reasonably expect to have neighbors nearby, which might call for defensive measures. The usual AI default for my Data Angels is Explore, Build. They also get +1 ECONOMY; the Morganites get +2 ECONOMY. My Data Angels automatically get techs that 3 other factions have, without any need for infiltration. That's much fairer to the AI, who will never infiltrate all the enemy factions in the real world. It means that I'll get a lot of tech quickly at the beginning. Probe teams aren't even on their main research path, because they're going to get it anyways. You get it from D1 Information Networks. It's a primarily Discover, secondarily Conquer technology, and should be easily obtained by most factions. Because I'm facing the unknown, I'm going to go straight for it right now though. Switching research focus to Discover.
My first 2 techs are Progenitor Psych and Centauri Ecology. One of them I researched myself, I believe the latter. That's a little odd as the Discover weight on that is 0. Same is true for Progenitor Psych.
I gain Doctrine: Mobility from a pod. I create a Rover Former design and swap production in one of my cities. I'm hoping that popping a pod will complete the production of the unit. Prototypes are very expensive in my mod, they cost 3x as much as a regular unit. Skunkworks are not available until late midgame either.
Borehole Complex |
MY 2112. 1st major terrain feature of note is the Borehole Complex. So if the AI goes nuts with those, at least I'll have a few of my own. :P My 1 starting probe team went west on a long river system, so I know a lot about what's out west. It's pretty empty. No other faction gets a Rover based unit at the start of the game, not even the Spartans. I've gone through versions where I didn't give the Data Angels any starting probe team either, but in version 1.28 they get 1. It's a good scout if you're careful with it. I don't pop pods with it, too valuable until I know how to make new ones.
Post by: bvanevery on February 27, 2019, 08:45:06 PM
MY 2115. Couldn't get any completions from popping pods. Instead kept cloning my Scouts. Nearing the threshold of 10 minerals where I'd take a penalty for switching, so I switch to conventional expense units.
MY 2117. I gain Doctrine: Flexibility from my faction's ability. 1 turn until I research something new.
MY 2118. I discover Information Networks, which is pretty much what I should get. There aren't any other D1 techs. Now that I can make probe teams, I don't need to worry about Discover anymore unless I want to. I think I'll just go for Build. The Explore, Build default is for the benefit of the AI. Having an Explore focus seems to stimulate the stock AI to make bigger empires earlier. But I'm in charge of that, so I don't need that.
I am sending my probe team home. It has searched a reasonably large radius to the west, and I have not run into anyone that way. Mindworms will start being more active due to others popping stuff, and there's a greater chance of getting it killed. I may have probe team capability now, but I haven't actually prototyped a probe team unit yet. You get rover or foil probe team prototypes for free with different C2 techs, but I haven't researched those. You could say I have "minimum" probe capability, just in case someone gnarly comes my way. As it is though, my home front is pretty quiet so far.
Post by: bvanevery on February 27, 2019, 09:11:33 PM
Borehole settled |
MY 2138. I managed to pop all the pods around the Borehole Complex without destroying the boreholes. I did encounter a couple of mindworms milling around, but fortunately they did not make a beeline to the boreholes to destroy them. They were attracted to the Monoliths. There almost weren't any Monoliths to be attracted to, because I was leery of popping pods at all. But it worked out. I'd say I got moderately lucky. My experience has been that early on, the Borehole Complex is actually a liability. Mindworms and spore launchers just come to trash it, unless you invest some resources into defending it. And you won't profit from it until you've at least researched Ecological Engineering. Even then, you won't get full energy and it takes time to get enough food together to make it work.
Note that the Pirates are doing best on the graph, with all other factions fairly even. This is to be expected in my mod. Thinker claims to space out the factions better than the default placement algorithm does. On my mod's large continental land area maps, that could make all factions quite comfortable for initial expansion. It could explain why I haven't met anybody.
Post by: bvanevery on February 27, 2019, 10:16:31 PM
Coastal Morganics |
The Morganites have settled the coast far to the west of me. There are fungal towers and scratchy dry land between us. I don't actually want that dry land, in fact I started building Recreation Commons in my cities instead of expanding further that way. I don't have a reason to believe in inherent hostility, as I'm a Build oriented faction myself and Capitalist (renamed Free Market) is a good early choice in my mod. I'm sending my probe team to check them out.
MY 2144. I research B2 Synthetic Fossil Fuels. Aside from fungicidal tanks, it also allows Capitalist government. In my mod that's +1 ECONOMY +1 INDUSTRY -3 PLANET. So I'll need to get that fungicide going full tilt, because mindworms are gnarly with that kind of penalty! I spent all my money to upgrade my existing and in production Formers to Fungicidal.
My approaching Scout got killed by a gratuitous mindworm, so no contact with Morgan yet. Hey with luck, maybe it'll take out their base.
MY 2148. I usefully obtain E2 Centauri Empathy from my faction's ability. It gives Biology Labs and Hypnotic Trance. It does not give any Secret Project. No SPs are available until Tech Tier 3 in my mod, and the Empath Guild specifically comes much later than the stock game.
Morganic civilization |
MY 2149. My probe team reaches a Morganic Scout in its home territory. His attitude is Magnanimous so I anticipate a Pact will come. I decline his offer for the Cyborgs' commlink frequency, knowing I'll get it for free when he's my ally. Sure enough, he signs a Pact. I have slightly better tech than he does due to my faction's ability.
Morgan's city spread pattern is smaller than I'm used to. This is clearly a smallpox leaning AI. It remains to be seen if that's an advantage. I've seen it be an advantage in other Civ-style games, but I don't know about SMAC. I prefer bigpox myself, with little to no overlap between cities. The terrain that Morgan has had available is fairly good, with a lot of rainy land. So up to a point, that may be just fine for early city growth. I wonder about later growth getting cramped though.
While examining cities to see what they're supporting, I noticed a badly wounded Caretaker Ogre in a patch of fungus. Morgan doesn't have the Caretaker commlink frequency yet, but he should shortly. I may send my probe up that way just to make sure I get it.
Aki-Zeta5 offers a Pact for immediate war with the Caretakers. I don't know how capable either AI is, and I'd rather find out by watching them swat each other, so I decline. We sign a Treaty but she doesn't want to trade tech. I ask for commlink frequencies for Deirdre and Svensgaard but she doesn't have them.
Cybernetic civilization |
Talking to Morgan again, he has obtained a Cyborg map. They are a near neighbor. Seems I wasn't wrong about anticipating neighbors on my land mass. They are about as close as they could be, and still be far enough away that I didn't run into them. Same style of city spread pattern. They popped a lot of forest and have some nutrient bonuses, but otherwise the land is not as good as Morgan's.
I anticipate the Caretaker homeland is going to be far to the northwest, with both of these 2 as buffer states. Only other possibility is that the Caretakers slipped past me somehow without making contact. Or a slow Transport brought them to a far shore. I doubt I have to worry about them as a military threat.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 12:06:40 AM
MY 2154. I obtain B2 Industrial Base from my faction's ability. It gives Recycling Tanks. I start making them where I can. 2 of my bases are already committed to Biology Labs.
I infiltrate the Cyborgs and my probe team survives. All they've got that I don't is D2 Secrets of the Human Brain. All it does in my mod is a give a free tech, and serve as a pure Discover barrier to additional Discover techs. It does not give Fundamentalist, that's in a Conquer tech now. Not a total loss as I've discovered a bug in my mod looking at this. I used to have it later in the tree, and it had a transition from Librarian to Thinker workers. Now it's messed up, the Librarian is retired. I'll fix that and hope this AI isn't depending on Librarians.
2 of my perimeter cities have gotten hammered by marauding mindworms. I lost 1 of them. Oh well. I also can't seem to attack these 2 Spore Launchers for crap. I've lost 2 units already. I may have to send some trained units up to deal with it, but I'll keep sending the blowoff stuff for now. I've got 1 city with a Command Center making all my Trance Scouts, and they only come so fast.
MY 2162. I research C2 Doctrine: Loyalty. In my mod it gives Fundamentalist, which is considered secondarily a Build technology due to a Support bonus. I could trade with Morgan to get Adaptive Doctrine, but I'll probably get it through my faction's ability pretty soon anyways, so why bother. My probe team infiltrates the Morganites and survives.
MY 2163. The Cyborgs are feeling Magnanimous towards me, and I need to infiltrate the Caretakers next. I sign a Pact with the Cyborgs because Morgan would probably drag me into war with the Caretakers anyways. Now I've got 2 border allies and we all have a common enemy. The Cyborgs were starting to make probe teams and I don't really want those coming my way.
Both of my allies have more cities than I do, although I probably have reserved more land. I've taken some mindworm casualties. I'm ranked 2nd lowest on the graph, although I don't put much stock in that.
Morgan got the comm frequency of the Pirates. They give the frequency of the Gaians, and they sign a Treaty. They also trade me B3 Ecological Engineering for my C2 Doctrine: Loyalty. I'm surprised at that, because the former gives the Weather Paradigm and it's not built yet. Maybe they think the Gaians will complete it soon and they don't have a shot at it? Or maybe they're just not thinking. I don't really care, I'll take it. I may have seen this sort of behavior before in the stock AI, but it's been awhile.
The Gaians are Seething, but surprisingly, they trade a tech. I sell their frequency to my allies, but neither manages to produce a map.
MY 2164. Svensgaard is elected Governor by an overwhelming margin.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 12:17:03 AM
Gaian island |
MY 2170. The Morganites obtained a map of Gaian territory. It's west of me, with the Pirates in the way.
Pirate landlubbers |
The Pirates are southwest of me, and have done a surprising amount of land development, for Pirates. I don't exactly approve of their land orientation, given their sea Minerals bonus, but their empire is much better centralized than the stock AI. Usually the Pirates just spread indiscriminately everywhere, as far away as they can. I notice that Safe Haven and Port Svensgaard, the first 2 cities, are in good locations as well. Usually the AI settles in a completely awful location, like deep ocean with no resources at all.
It wouldn't shock me if the Pirates get uppity, threaten me with invasion, and then I have to take their land bases away. Perhaps one at a time, to force a Truce after each one. I will be surprised if this AI understands the efficacy of my Marine coastal attacks either. It's pretty much the antidote to nearby Pirate shenanigans.
But first I'll have to get appropriate weapons. I'm really behind on the whole city spreading thing. I'm not going to change my usual play style for this though. I don't think I have any aggressive neighbors yet, in fact I have a nearly perfect wall of border states from such aggression.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 01:09:05 AM
Usurper weaklings |
MY 2180. We've been in sunspots for several turns. A badly wounded Usurper slow Transport has shown up on my shore. They're as weak on the graph as I am. I wonder why? Maybe they're right next to the Caretakers and the latter got some early advantage over the former. I thought this .exe patch had some minimum safeguards for distance though. Did the Usurpers get one of their early colony pods wiped out? It's just odd that the Caretakers are doing almost as well as the Pirates, and the Usurpers aren't doing squat. Getting bottled up on islands shouldn't be a problem, as my world generation settings took care of that. Also in my mod, Doctrine: Flexibility is a C1 tech, very easy to obtain. Starting on an insufficiently large island is still possible, but it shouldn't be the death sentence that it is in the stock game.
I've stopped worrying about the tech sequencing. It seems to be following what I'd expect from my mod, so I guess the early issue with messing up the discovery weights, is no longer a problem. Tech-wise I'm doing ok because AI factions that go resource gangbusters, simply give their baseline of technology to me. I wonder how I'd fare as some other faction?
The rate of smallpox city spreading is disturbing, but I don't know how the AI factions are doing on terrain improvements. Guess I could take a look at my individual allies' cities, even if I can't really see everything on the map. Myself, I badly need some rails. Fungicidal Formers have not worked all that well, as mindworms keep coming from fungal towers to destroy them. I've managed to snip the fungus away from some cities but not others.
Looking at the Cyborgs' cities, I'm seeing piles of forest, a seriously excessive number of roads, and no rails whatsoever. I remember Induktio recently saying that his .exe patch deliberately doesn't build any rails at all. Well, ok, it'll have consequences somehow. I think it will be to my advantage! I mean, I'm the freakin' rail building king. I've got a basic tool of the game that the AI doesn't know how to use.
The Morganites also have excessive roads wherever there are forests. This AI doesn't understand the concept of forests as defense. You don't want roads through your forests. They're there to slow down enemy probe teams and rovers. Speeders and hovertanks will make mincemeat out of this, and it's also a pretty good start for a mag tube laying offensive. Well, we'll see if the AI has other virtues, but it has gone a bit nutters on the forests. I'm actually wondering just where it got all the Formers to do that much terraforming. My empire doesn't look remotely as carpeted as theirs do, although I do have good, useful stands of trees for my city sizes.
I have better city improvements than they do, i.e. Biology Labs and Network Nodes everywhere. Working on Children's Creches, which they haven't started. Hope I'm right about long term growth, or at least "right enough". Glad these guys are my allies. If they rushed me right now, I'd be in trouble. That said, they never would have. My strategy has been entirely about scouting out my surroundings early, and determining a course of action appropriate to it. There are no threats to the north, west, or south. The east is my big unknown, there's a body of water out there I haven't explored. I thought someone would have coughed up a map of the enemy by now, but nope.
Maybe I will need to get serious about fishing and popping Artifacts. I've acquired a few already, but really I've just been trying to get my basic cities up to snuff. The need to remove fungus, and the mindworm attacks, haven't been conducive to exploring. It's an argument against early Capitalism, but hey, Morgan's my neighbor. Politically it's the right thing to do regardless of other consequences, and it's not a bad option. Gotta love extra money and industry, especially since my Angels have +1 ECONOMY to begin with. So I'm running at +2, got extra energy on every tile. I'm basically "Morganite lite". That fits the lore, as Roze is a Morganic Help Desk reject.
MY 2181. I gain E3 Centauri Genetics from my faction ability. This is how you get mindworms and spore launchers in my mod. I'm going to make some mindworms to pop pods with. With my lousy PLANET rating they won't be any good for fighting, but at least they can pop pods without getting killed.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 02:08:22 AM
Usurpations |
MY 2189. Sneaky [progeny of unmarried parents] Usurper Scout parked itself next to my city when that slow Transport showed up. Found out when trying to clear fungus. Good reason to finally prototype Synthmetal Armor. Prototypes are 3x as expensive in my mod so I've been resisting this. Sometimes a more advanced tech will provide a predefined unit for something, so occasionally it pays to wait. Probably not in this case though. I've just been stubborn and had other priorities.
Some forest finally penetrated next to a fungal tower, so now perhaps I can finally get rid of it while it's weakened.
MY 2193. Sunspots have ended. I have not completed my Synthmetal Armor prototype, 2 more turns. I don't want to talk to the Usurpers before I have my armor in place, lest they attack. I will try to avoid their unit.
I am concerned that tech-wise, despite my Network Nodes and Biology Labs, both Morgan and Svensgaard will out-Build me. Deirdre and the Caretakers will surely out-Explore me. Maybe the Consciousness won't out-Discover me? Or the Consciousness and the Usurpers may not out-Conquer me. The Consciousness is actually a Discover + Conquer faction, so I will try a pure Discover strategy. I might actually win that. They don't, for instance, have the Human Genome yet, and I've got a defunct Merchant Exchange being built that the Morganites already got. Discover it is then.
I am Pathetic, although the Usurpers and the Consciousness aren't far behind. Gaining others' techs has kept me afloat, but I haven't had anyone to directly steal from. The Pirates and the Caretakers are the leading powers of the game. I still have no idea where the latter are. A huge vertical half of the map is a big black void, so they're in there somewhere.
Usurper island sprawl |
Talked to the Cyborgs and they had figured out Usurper territory. It's a big island north of the Cyborgs. I'm intrigued that despite many more cities, they are rated only barely better than myself. Getting techs known to 3 factions must be worth a lot!
The Morganites are at war with the Pirates. I don't want to deal with that right now, so I'm not talking to Morgan. The war explains all those probe teams they kept sending over land, past my westernmost city. There's a huge patch of fungus down there and I don't know if they even made it through. Probe team shenanigans have become pretty tame in my mod when using the stock AI; this for me is like a blast from the past.
I hope those don't come for me at some point because I'm not ready. Yes in my mod I'm the only faction that gets any PROBE bonus, and mine is +2. And the only PROBE bonuses available from social engineering choices are +1 for Power, and +2 for Thought Control. Fundamentalist, in particular, doesn't do anything for PROBE. I got rid of the "Fundies are Probers" game mechanic, in favor of Fundamentalist and Police State being somewhat similar to each other. Both give a SUPPORT and a POLICE bonus, but it's +1 for Fundamentalist, +2 for Police State.
My Believers, not in this game, are immune to Mind Control. Hope the AI thinks about that, before sending a pile of probe teams at them. Of course they could still steal techs, or sabotage, or steal energy.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 02:23:53 AM
One thing I don't know, is whether this AI will spend a vast quantity of cash to complete a Secret Project, or whether it'll just sit on its money the way the stock AI does. If it does spend, it could make it easier to mind control cities, because the formula is partly about how much of an energy reserve a faction has. I presume this is the reason the stock AI doesn't spend much, although it's not very efficient and arguably is just dumb.
The Pirates have 1076 energy reserves, enough to be a worry. A 300 point SP costs 1200 energy, not counting the need to complete some of the project already. 1000 credits and an Artifact will insta-complete a 300 point SP, such as the Ascetic Virtues. Presently I need 508 credits to complete, and I have 435, so I will wait. I'm definitely buying this if I get the money in time though.
MY 2195. I got Plasma armor from my faction ability. Also could build the Citizens' Defense Force, but I'd rather have the Ascetic Virtues. Finally starting a Laser Speeder prototype. I've had the tech for awhile, but no real need for it. Still don't, I've just built what I've needed in my 1 Command Center already and might as well get this done.
Tried to attack a half wounded Spore Launcher with my full strength pre-boil mindworm, had odds obviously in my favor, and still died. My PLANET rating sucks. Well, lesson learned. Can't go after native life with my own, unless said life is all but dead.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 02:41:20 AM
MY 2197. I complete the Ascetic Virtues. If I go Police State I can now have 2x effective police! It's a money hit, and my Justice rating (Efficiency to you folks) will go down, but 2x police is too much fun. It's all Chairman Yang and stuff. Doesn't hurt my research either, at least not directly with a research penalty. I'm going for it. I make 1 credit per turn now though. :2c:
Caretaker sea base |
I found the Caretakers. I don't know their extent yet, but I'll have it soon enough. They don't have any unknown techs, so next run will be a map steal.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 03:44:33 AM
MY 2204. I acquiesce to Morgan's war with the Pirates. I hope I don't regret it. At least there's land and a moat in the way of us. His sea strength is on a different body of water. In a hand wavy sense, imagine I'm in the Gulf of Mexico, and he's on the Pacific side of South America. No Panama Canal, and a big fungal tower in the way of any advance. This is hopefully just an opportunity for me to steal his tech.
MY 2205. I did not get the Caretaker map, but rather Bioadaptive Resonance. I would probably have gotten it soon by my faction ability anyways, but might as well have it now. Not a complete loss as my foil probe team is now Elite.
MY 2206. To the Southeast I have found the Unity crash site. Surprisingly, it is untouched. I expect a payday of 300 credits in a few turns!
MY 2208. Well shoot! My Elite foil probe team is trapped in a city with an inland lake. I guess it will be well defended forever.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 05:06:40 AM
I can build |
MY 2221. Despite being the dead last faction on the graph, nobody's actually managed to build more Secret Projects than me. Part of my success is gaining free techs from all these AI factions that are doing well. I'm not certain if I could do that with another faction, although I could choose to make a beeline for the Planetary Datalinks in such circumstances. Probably a good strategy if one expects other factions to have overheated tech economies.
The other part is the AI is clearly not finishing off projects that it could win. It's giving me time to catch up and surpass, using my mag tube network and supply crawlers. I don't really regret this. I don't mind actually doing ok in the game.
Militarily though, I'm starting to wonder about my mod vs. this AI. I wonder if my mod has favored defense to the point that nobody can make serious military inroads into anything. My jury is out on that. I await playtester opinions. I'm not shocked that the Pirates have been unable to threaten me, as they are a sea power and not properly facing me with their navy. My land neighbors, I deliberately made allies, and they had personalities which allowed for that. There's some luck in that, but also some skill. I correctly estimated my safety and it seems I was right. The unexplored oceans to the east were a potential point of failure for me, but it didn't turn out to be a problem in practice. Nobody sufficiently nearby in that direction.
I'm wondering how to gain ground on my enemies. I don't want to pop my Artifacts quite yet, because I think other factions are still researching aggressively and haven't reached a point of staleness. No point popping what I can steal! For now, I'm working on Tree Farms.
My mindworms have survived and continue to explore mostly empty land to the southeast. I have not sent out any naval expeditions to fish for pods at sea, as my cities have been too busy and those waters have also become dangerous.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 06:58:28 AM
MY 2226. The Morganites have taken over a Cyborg city with a mind control probe. 2 allies at war with each other, joy. The Cyborgs talk to me 1st and demand war. I side with them, since Morgan is more powerful and also causing eco-damage. Time for a Truce with the Pirates if I can manage it. Well, they're not talking to me. I go Green, to get some combat leverage on Morgan. Doesn't please Deirdre enough, she wants a lot of money that she's never gonna get.
MY 2228. I go Fundamentalist. My cities are not big enough to need the 2x police units. There's a war on. My research is not going to catch up with the Morganites. I also make more money this way. They're going through the Cyborgs like butter, I think with probe teams.
Morganic 3 pulse probe speeders inbound |
MY 2229. That terribly clever 3-Pulse probe team unit I made for my mod, Morgan is putting to good advantage. I only have 1 land probe to defend against it, as I did not expect war with an ally on this time scale. I also have the 1 landlocked sea probe team, which is going to be oddly useful now. In the field, I'll have to rely on doubled up units.
Generally my production is feeble compared to other factions. I'll need to determine if the AI has been given resource buffs, or if it just makes much better use of the same capabilities I have. The former is not interesting as it can be accomplished many ways in a plain .txt mod. The latter, well it pits the AI's lack of boredom against the human's patience, and makes different parts of the tech tree better or worse options.
I switch from Wealth to Survival as there's a serious war on. It costs me half my income.
I capture my 1st Isle of the Deep.
The good news is Morgan is Democratic Capitalist Wealth Eudaimonic. That means he's -3 PLANET and -3 MORALE. If I can keep his probe teams from mind controlling me, I should be able to beat him in a straight fight.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 07:38:29 AM
bitter probing pills |
Wow, these 3-Pulse units are really tough. His offensive has really caught me with my pants down. This is my only non-Speeder Impact gun. I will have mindworms shortly but I could really use them right now. I don't expect artillery to do any good against 3-Pulse armor, I won't even bother.
My Impactor dies, but does 80% damage to the enemy. I finish it off with a Speeder.
I'm now starting to realize what a PITA it is to be on the receiving end of a Hovertank. He can cross terrain that I can't, so he's pretty much set up for striking at whim. Against bases that only have Scouts in them. Great. I've got 1 piece of Plasma armor. At least this is not a cloaked unit, it is not armored, and it is Very Green. I do have 1 Hovertank Scout, which should be enough to cripple it at least. Could finish it off with one of the 2 Gun Penetrators I've picked up. That's my mod's alternative to the Unity Chopper, as I took Choppers completely out of the game. They're now used as the chassis for a Locust of Chiron, so that Gravships can go much faster.
Belatedly, I realize that artillery will be effective against an unarmored Hovertank. I have 1 piece to spare, as the other needs to fend off a Pirate ship. Ok, knocked it down to 80% with that. Veteran Scout Tank wounds but does not kill. Gun Jet kills, taking heavy damage. Without reinforcements, I won't be able to keep up such exchanges.
I decide it's time to blow my cash and finish the Tree Farms. If I had been less in denial, I would have done this while I was still doing Wealth. Oh well. I rush 1 mind worm, all but 1 of my Tree Farms, and a Pressure Dome on a 10 meter altitude city. So much for the Secret Project cash reserve.
MY 2331. My mindworm trashes the 3-Pulse probe team. Previous experience with my mod has been that mindworms are the antidote. I had another stroke of luck, in that Morgan's next Hovertank ran afoul of something in the fungus and got badly wounded. Since I have the Command Nexus, I'm making defensive unarmored infantry probe teams in all available cities. They're quick to produce, and I have a higher PROBE rating than anyone else. Should be enough to guard against anything unexpected slipping through.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 08:42:31 AM
MY 2236. Realizing that the Pirates have almost completed the Virtual World, I'd say my Discover plan is not working. I switch to Conquer, in the hopes of obtaining Advanced Military Algorithms. In my mod that gives the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm and Covert Ops Center. Having a free one of those in all of my cities could be useful.
MY 2237. WTH? Morgan is now Pact Brother with the Cyborgs. I went to war at the Cyborgs' behest! Well that explains why the Cyborgs haven't been further devoured.
Tactically, I'm doing ok. Morgan can't seem to get past my defenses, and they're only improving.
Strategically, I see an awful lot of city dots all over the minimap. The Morganite cities didn't turn out to be small either. Some of those cities have pretty big borehole production. Not sure what to do about it, although I suppose it needs to be mindworms and probe teams somehow. I don't like the idea of resorting to chemical or genetic warfare, but it might be necessary. I'd need to get that legalized. Sometimes it's easy, other times nobody wants it.
I'll sleep on it.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
MY 2240. Floods are to rise to 400 meters.
MY 2244. Flooding has split my small civilization in half, severing my mag tube network because of an overflowing river system. I have to be careful not to end any movement on the river, or my units will die next turn. I've had to replay my turn 3 times due to gratuitous mouseclicking problems.
I'm trying to build the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm but so are others. We're into Fusion Power now. Tactically I'm still safe, but I lack productivity. I tried to build a rail network to get closer to Morgan's nearest city, but his air power and hovertanks put a stop to that. I still haven't had time to make a hovertank probe team, which wouldn't be able to reach target anyways. I do have ECM Fusion units now, but only enough for my defense, especially given the need to finish the HSA.
Morgan is working on the Space Elevator and Conventional Missiles. He has the productivity to make a lot of those. If he starts shooting them at me instead of the Pirates, that may be the end of me.
Post by: bvanevery on February 28, 2019, 05:36:13 PM
I am having a weirdness where I'm suddenly unable to task switch between SMACX and anything else on my laptop. I wonder if it is related to Secret Project videos? I reactivated those recently. I didn't have this problem with the stock .exe though. I believe Thinker includes Scient's patches. What if Scient's patch did something?
Hmm, whatever is going on, it seems to have killed File Explorer. Even with SMACX terminated, I can't switch between Firefox and the desktop. Task Manager doesn't show any SMACX zombie process. I wonder if the trial version of Malwarebytes is at fault. Well the workaround so far has been a reboot. I will try disabling Secret Project videos and see if the problem goes away.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 06:52:17 AM
The Gatling gun finally makes those hovertank probe teams explode properly. Technology is actually up to Missiles, but I've had no time to do anything at my Skunkworks. Building a Hybrid Forest there, to make better use of the 2 boreholes.
I infiltrate the Usurpers. They don't have any new tech.
The Morganites and the Pirates have launched a ridiculous number of Orbital Defense Pods recently. Which all just got destroyed in a solar flare. I hope those 2 keep whacking each other enough to get me a shot at killing the Morganites.
MY 2252. I have reconnected my rails, using new Super Hovertank Former units. Morgan has only sent probe teams my direction, some of which have suicided against the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. I should be able to mop up what remains in a few turns. I will have a Missile Infantry prototype completed next turn.
MY 2253. Flooding disconnected my rail again, but didn't destroy any Formers as I was building rails on high ground. Hard to predict this stuff. At least we're not Waterworld yet. I wonder if we can vote to launch solar shade? Problem is, Svensgaard is Governor and can veto. He also completed the Empath Guild, so he will not be readily dislodged.
MY 2254. Svensgaard completes the Nethack Terminus, making me vulnerable to any Fusion probe teams he makes. Fortunately, his probes have not been a real problem. I acquire a number of techs from my faction ability, finally giving me Thought Control. There's no downside to -4 RESEARCH as I'll never catch the tech leaders, short of outright conquest.
I switch a lot of production to Fission Super Formers on an Infantry chassis. I need serious road laying capability, and these cost 30 instead of 40 for the Fusion Hovertank versions. I have enough hovertanks to lay a basic road. These can put the rails on top of it. My production and economy simply suck too badly to make any factories. I need to do more with cheaper units.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 06:54:27 AM
I couldn't build a rail to their door, but I did get it close enough to send old infantry chassis fission probe team units in for sabotage and theft. Failure rate threatens to be too high for targeted operations, so I just stir things up in there. I also steal the 1 tech Morgan has that I don't. Svensgaard is actually the tech leader now. Perimeter Defense goes down... and then I realize they have the invulnerability of the Citizens' Defense Force. Groan! I went through this in the Fission Armor game as well.
Well at least I've finally got Genejack Factories available. They will take me forever to build though. I've built up an awful lot of force, merely to take out 2 units in 1 city. The flooding has been that disruptive, as well as my general production impoverishment. I hope with what I've got, I eat away at Morgan's southern end without really being counterattacked by him. Use up some units and get some support back.
Hmm maybe I can take this city with mindworms this turn. And if all my mindworms get destroyed, that's a good reason to stop bothering being Green. I wouldn't mind having city growth again.
A damn Sensor Array gets in my way, that I didn't previously see. I pause the assault to get rid of it. A probe team and an Elite Scout pillage it. Dammit, there's a 2nd one that took me some time to figure out where it is. A minerals icon was obscuring it in the city readout. A fission Impact Battery is pretty useless at this point, so I send that. My odds are improved, but I'm still going to lose the Demon Boil in the attack. I'll check the rest of my inventory to see if I've got any Elite units lying around somewhere, that could do a better job attacking.
Nope, that's a next turn thing, and only 1 such unit anyways. Proceeding with the losses. Despite the odds, the Demon Boil blows the defender completely up! Guess the odds calculator was bogus in this case. No losses as the other defender had no armor. I send the rest of my probe teams to steal money and make a lot of dough! 120 credits a pop.
I've put a massive number of troops into this new city. Only real danger is getting nuked. Or the enemy deciding to lob Conventional Missiles at my other cities that have Artifacts in them. Saving my game just in case. I didn't really want to pop my Artifacts just yet, but I will if they're otherwise going to be destroyed.
Yeah, the Pirates took 1 cheap shot that way. I reloaded my turn and moved my 6 artifacts to 1 city that has a viable air defense.
I was going to put a Punishment Sphere in this size 9 city, but with a +4 POLICE rating, my police are so amazing that I can just make a few and call it good.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 10:02:38 AM
I seize the next city up the road, which contains the Merchant Exchange. It took me quite some time to build a rail to its doorstep. I think Morgan and Svensgaard must be in a permanent Orbital Defense Pod war. I see a lot of them getting built every turn, and it would explain why no military units are really coming my way. It says to me I'd prefer to take only Morgan's cities that have Secret Projects in them, as I want him to keep producing that stalemate. The Pirates are the dominant power of the game; Morgan is just the threat closest to me to munge.
One nice thing about taking this city, is I managed to do it without wrecking its infrastructure. It's got a 27 minerals output. Now for all I know, Morgan might destroy these boreholes imminently, but at least I've got a Genejack Factory.
MY 2264. I take a size 1 Caretaker sea base and precipitate a Treaty. I get a massive payday going after a stack of mindworms attacking the Morganites.
MY 2265. Deirdre suddenly decides to hurl missiles at me. No previous pattern of doing so. I sign a Treaty with the Usurpers. I've taken another Morganic city, although now I feel stretched thin. The Pirates start attacking my Formers with their air force, so I retreat them to my homelands. I decide to spend my big payday and complete all my Genejack Factories, for fear of losing that Morganic base I took over. I don't want them getting any larger a chunk of cash from the conquest than necessary.
And then...
th th th th th th th thats all folks |
I don't know what exactly triggered Deirdre to start hitting me specifically with Conventional Missiles. Maybe I stretched myself too thin and the AI sensed my weakness? Maybe me signing Treaties with the Aliens changed the political status quo somehow? All I know is I never had any direct physical interaction with Deirdre at all. Nevertheless she stayed at war with me most of the game. That made sense when I was Capitalist, but I've been Green for a long time. Anyways it feels like a bit of an ass pull, and I'm definitely not willing to take further abuse. If I could even recover from that, which I doubt.
I always knew that someone could start hurling CMs at me, and that could be the end of me. Part of me is surprised it took this long. I guess other factions were busy fighting each other.
Boreholes might be a great strategy compared to my usual drill. It's probably been 2 years since I bothered with a "boreholes everywhere" style of play, trying to see how many I could pack into an empire. It didn't really make any difference for beating the stock AI, so I didn't care to bother with it again. I became more of a "Forest and forget" player.
I am doubting the AI is made to pay the ecological cost of the boreholes and condensers, at all. If I had an empire like I've seen the AI produce in this game, I think I'd be up to my neck in mindworms. Indeed, taking that last Morganic city, I started getting a bunch of fungal pops.
I could play another game to prove my point, trying to build an empire in the same style as the AI. But I need to meditate a bit on what it's worth to me. This feels like the AI is built around a massive ecological exploit in the AI's favor.
Perhaps I should play my own mod, no Thinker, and see how long it takes me to completely trash the planet with boreholes and condensers. Yeah, that sounds like a plan.
I'd also like to understand some lines in thinker.ini:
Code: [Select]
; Prioritize former/crawler/resource-lifting techs when selecting what to research.
tech_balance=1This doesn't even make any sense except for the Alien factions. Human factions should be doing blind research just like I'm doing. And the correct focus for getting crawlers and boreholes, in my mod at least, is Build. Factions are supposed to research whatever I tell them to research in the faction.txt files, not just any old stuff. Factions either have a Build focus or they don't.
Code: [Select]
; Set AI cost factors for mineral/nutrient production for each difficulty level respectively.
; All other difficulty level modifiers remain unaffected by this setting.
cost_factor=13,12,11,10,8,7Is this some kind of resource cheat for the AI? Like if you're on Transcend, make it suck double hard? I wouldn't feel bad about losing to that.
What I actually saw in play, is the AI seemed tactically as dumb as ever. I mean, I survived an awfully long time as a puny empire, confronted by what should have been overwhelming force.
However, Conventional Missiles are exceptional death weapons in my mod. They can hit anything on the map no matter the distance. It may take multiple turns for them to arrive somewhere, but not many, as they move 30. They don't burn fuel, they can stay aloft indefinitely. They are true ICBMs. They're expensive, or at least I tried to make them so, relative to production levels I'm used to. So if your production goes through the roof and you can spit these things out like spittle, well hey game over man. I was proud of myself for raising their price above "the usual". It cut down on all kinds of CM spam. Now with Thinker, in my mod at least, the game is once again determined by CM spam.
So there you have it. Testing complete. I scratch my head about what's fair and what's just cheating for the AI.
Post by: Induktio on March 01, 2019, 11:20:57 AM
I'm not altering anything in the Thinker .ini. Looking at it, the only thing that makes me wonder is:Code: [Select]; Set AI cost factors for mineral/nutrient production for each difficulty level respectively.I don't know what these do, or if these factors were in the original game.
; All other difficulty level modifiers remain unaffected by this setting.
cost_factor=13,12,11,10,8,7
Well, that's an interesting story to say the least. Excessive sea level rise has been identified as a possible problem, that's why I recommend players lowering that "Numerator/Denominator for frequency of global warming" setting from alphax.txt.
But I feel like I have to clarify cost_factor setting since you seem to complain about the resource cheats or whatever. In the standard game the AI always has a cost factor determined by the difficulty level relative to the players production cost which stays at 100%. The numbers are here: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Difficulty (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Difficulty)
In the cost_factor setting, these are just expressed as fractions of ten, like the game does. It can't have any more accuracy because the factor is actually the number of columns in the production box. E.g. 7 is 70% of human cost at transcend. In addition to mineral cost the factors also apply to the nutrients required for base growth. So that's all the resource bonuses the AI will get which should be the same than in the standard game. If they are somehow able to gain more production than this, it's probably a bug, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 03:39:00 PM
In my test game, I didn't find the global warming that I experienced to be excessive. It is an annoying game mechanic though. When you suffer global warming from something you did yourself, at least you as a player can feel you're suffering a consequence for your own actions. But when it happens from stuff that other players are doing, that you can't basically control because the map is huge and the AI doesn't get tired of spamming cities, it feels like one is being griefed. It was horrible with Fusion Armor mod and the stock binary, when I did a test game of that.
My biggest concern is if the AI is getting to do all kinds of borehole and condenser abuse, without suffering any ecological consequences for doing so. If they can make empires that I can't, then we're not playing the same game. I will try watching the AI play itself and see if the hordes of mindworms ever come to chew them up.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 04:39:52 PM
Morganic AI loses Weather Paradigm race |
MY 2181. Morgan's empire is unremarkable from an eco-damage standpoint so far. The AI has obviously done a good job of spreading on his large island, and he has built a fair number of Condensers. I haven't seen any fungal pops, and I doubt it would be enough to trigger any mindworm hordes, if this were my own empire.
Morgan is actually a weak player on the graph. The Pirates and the Data Angels dominate, about even with each other. I'm not surprised about the Pirates, as they have all those free sea minerals and a moat to keep anyone from messing with them. They dominate in games with the stock binary too, ever since I made them pacifist and focusing on Wealth. The Data Angels, well I guess that bears investigation.
Data Angels AI completes the Weather Paradigm |
They are on the northwest portion of a large continent. The Caretakers are neighbors at some distance east and they are at war. To the southeast, the Pirates have made some land encroachment, but they are primarily at sea and not a naval threat to the Angels. It's actually exactly like my own game, when I was the Angels.
The Angels have substantially more Condensers than the Morganites at this point. It makes me wonder if they started on inherently wetter land, and I'm seeing an amplifying effect of early nutrient advantages. The Angels have much more tech than the Morganites, due to their faction ability. They have obtained Environmental Economics, so they don't have energy restrictions anymore.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 05:07:13 PM
Data Angels AI begins building Boreholes |
MY 2196. The Data Angels have obtained Industrial Automation. Maybe they got it the turn before; things were whizzing by the screen. I don't quite understand how they could have gotten a Supply Crawler this very same turn, but they do have 1 active. 9 in production. I count 6 Borehole sites started. It's mildly interesting that having the Weather Paradigm didn't trigger them to produce Boreholes, even though they could have.
The number of Condensers that have been built is truly obsessive. They don't seem to be used to make a general area wetter. Rather, they are used to make specific tiles produce a lot of food. They're quite redundant from a general aeration standpoint. I don't know how much eco-damage this number of Condensers would do, but I know they do some eco-damage. I've seen no fungal pops at all. The Angels have chosen Democratic Socialist Wealth and have +0 PLANET, so maybe that's legit. They have 5 Tree Farms and a fair amount of forest sprinkled throughout their empire.
Nobody else knows Industrial Automation yet. The Angels are 1st. In my mod it's required for constructing Boreholes. That fits the lore, as the quote for the tech is all about boreholes.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 05:19:34 PM
a single locust |
MY 2202. A locust appears atop some fungus in the water. It might have been a fungal pop. Difficult to tell with things going by quickly. I see 2 Boreholes completed. Multiple Formers will work on a single Borehole site, which may explain the speed at which these got completed. I see up to 3 Formers working a site. The Weather Paradigm is also going to prove valuable now, seriously accelerating the speed at which these get built. Looks like it takes 16 turns instead of the usual 24.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 05:46:30 PM
Angels have [Sleezebag] in charge of the EPA |
MY 2210. Massive numbers of Supply Crawlers are working the conventional Mines of the Angels' empire. This alone should be causing massive eco-damage, but it isn't. I count 10 Boreholes completed. I've seen no fungal pops at all. I no longer believe that Locust was from a fungal pop, I think it just wandered in from somewhere and happened to cross a fungal sea square. I saw another Locust do that one turn elsewhere. In this particular future, global warming is clearly a hoax, and the Data Angels have obviously bribed Planet's mindworms not to get in the way of business as usual.
Still a Democratic Socialist Wealth regime, +0 PLANET. 12 Tree Farms. The highest level of eco-damage that any city lists, is 8. The highest minerals outputs are 32, 29, 26, and 25. I think the AI is getting a pass on eco-damage, but I haven't tried to build a comparable empire in awhile, so I don't know for sure. Seems like I have to come up with Hybrid Forests and Centauri Preserves to keep things from going crazy. Well at least now I have some target output levels in mind, if I do my own eco-damage test game to see what abuse I suffer.
I could just take over this faction and see if the eco-damage changes. However I want to see what kind of military threat this AI turns into. I can have my cake and eat it too, if I just save the game, take it over, observe any new eco-damage, and then reload when done checking.
Post by: bvanevery on March 01, 2019, 06:04:17 PM
for me this does 25 eco damage |
After taking over, I identified the worst offending city. I certainly didn't see anything doing 25 eco-damage before.
for the AI this does 8 eco damage |
Then I switched it back. Eco-damage drops by a factor of 3X!
The game cheats like a mad dog. For eco-damage, it gives special dispensation to the AI factions. Now in the stock game, not such a big deal, since the AI isn't that good at terraforming. But Thinker mod is built to exploit terraforming to the hilt. I will say unwittingly, it has leveraged a huge exploit in the AI's favor.
I personally don't want to play a game where the AI is simply given a gratuitous 3X resource advantage over me. While requiring me to ape its play style to keep up, no other choice because it's pretty much the golden path through the game. Mindworms popping all over the place are difficult and painful, and the AI is not facing them at all. Nevermind the flooding that results, which is a complete drag. I strongly recommend, chasing down every last egg, every last slimy one, until they are all cooked to a smoking husk. That species, will be exterminated, I tell you. Exterminated!
Seriously, please consider fixing this nightmare. The AI should have to play by the same eco-damage rules that I do. It's already got adjustable resource buffs, it shouldn't have this one built in. I know it's probably the stock binary that did this, not your fault, but your AI terraforming improvements have seriously exposed this defect in the game.