Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 01:32:45 PM

Title: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 01:32:45 PM

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page)

I remember taking picnics with grandma in the graveyard, and not just around memorial day.  Just because. 

Picnics, tombstone rubbings, reading under the tree...They were 'normal' activities to me as much as any park.  I didn't realize it's just how she was raised and was just something normal to her as well.   

As such, I've never really understood wider societies 'rules' and etiquette.  Kind of a sad thing to lose, really. 

Anyone else ever practice this?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 26, 2018, 01:43:19 PM

Weird. Never heard of that. Seems like this could be seen as insensitive to people actually there for a funeral, though.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2018, 01:53:29 PM

I found out real young that if both parties are okay with being there at night, a cemetery is a good spot to go parking.  -Also nice for being out of the car when the weather suits.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 02:15:04 PM

Quote from: Lorizael on April 26, 2018, 01:43:19 PM

Weird. Never heard of that. Seems like this could be seen as insensitive to people actually there for a funeral, though.

And that's what I don't get.  You're not wrong, mind you, I just don't understand why. 

I mean, provided I respect their privacy burying uncle Fred over yonder, why should they care if I'm eating lunch near that neat mausoleum hither? 


But then, I have a whole slew of things I'd like done with my remains, and none of them involve a solemn gathering just before dumping them in a hole.  But that's exactly what will happen.  I just have really weird relations with death.   

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Elok on April 26, 2018, 02:56:51 PM

It's the whole thing where picnics are supposed to be a happy occasion, while you're supposed to be sad or somber at cemeteries because you miss Uncle Fred.  You can argue that there are better attitudes to have towards death and dying, and that attitude isn't necessarily universal.  I imagine Mexicans see no problem with picnicking in the graveyard on Dia de los Muertos.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 26, 2018, 03:24:57 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 02:15:04 PM

But then, I have a whole slew of things I'd like done with my remains, and none of them involve a solemn gathering just before dumping them in a hole.  But that's exactly what will happen.  I just have really weird relations with death.

In the unlikely event that I do die, I'm going to get myself frozen. So I've recently decided that if my friends and family do have a funeral for me (during which they will be mourning over a hopefully empty casket), I want Metallica's "Trapped Under Ice" blaring during the whole ceremony. My goal is to encourage more eye rolling than crying. A nearby picnic couldn't really hurt the proceedings.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Syn on April 26, 2018, 03:38:53 PM

I've never done it but wouldn't mind it. Graveyards take up a lot of space. Finding utility beyond being a dumping site is ideal.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: E_T on April 26, 2018, 08:31:35 PM

A picnic in a graveyard and a picnic during a funeral, are two different things.  One could be termed as respectful to all and the other could be looked at as disrespectful for the one (by the ones whom are affected).  But then, how do you feel about wakes??  The picnic could be a continuation of a wake, if a wake was preformed...

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2018, 08:41:04 PM

I don't know why the dead would be adverse, if the dead cared.

All the funeral instructions I've ever made are for basically a wake without the drinking...

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Green1 on April 26, 2018, 08:44:25 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 01:32:45 PM

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page)

I remember taking picnics with grandma in the graveyard, and not just around memorial day.  Just because. 

Picnics, tombstone rubbings, reading under the tree...They were 'normal' activities to me as much as any park.  I didn't realize it's just how she was raised and was just something normal to her as well.   

As such, I've never really understood wider societies 'rules' and etiquette.  Kind of a sad thing to lose, really. 

Anyone else ever practice this?

My ex-wife's family did this for a few years after my ex grandmother in-law died and while the grandfather was still "with it". (He later developed Alzhiemers).

It was just them remembering her while getting out on a nice day. Nothing weird at all. Plus, the better cemeteries are clean, green and well landscaped, and pretty quiet for a picnic. It is one of the selling points of the nicer cemeteries and they actually encourage it as long as you are not trashing the place, getting drunk, or there at night.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 27, 2018, 02:31:21 AM

Quote from: Lorizael on April 26, 2018, 03:24:57 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 02:15:04 PM

But then, I have a whole slew of things I'd like done with my remains, and none of them involve a solemn gathering just before dumping them in a hole.  But that's exactly what will happen.  I just have really weird relations with death.

In the unlikely event that I do die, I'm going to get myself frozen. So I've recently decided that if my friends and family do have a funeral for me (during which they will be mourning over a hopefully empty casket), I want Metallica's "Trapped Under Ice" blaring during the whole ceremony. My goal is to encourage more eye rolling than crying. A nearby picnic couldn't really hurt the proceedings.

Like block of ice ice-man frozen or freeze dried mummy frozen?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 03:15:55 AM

Ted Williams frozen.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2018, 03:16:46 AM

Who's going to pay for that?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 01:32:03 PM

It's usually paid for via life insurance policies.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2018, 01:37:52 PM

I don't see how the financing works - either somebody pays or accepts an all-up-front sum, and the freezer vault company eventually goes bankrupt paying the horrific electric bills, or the insurance company gets soaked and stops offering that in a hurry...

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 01:54:38 PM

You can look at https://alcor.org/AboutAlcor/patientcaretrustfund.html for an example, but the idea is... living members pay a member fee to help support storage of frozen members; upon death, the life insurance policy pays out to the company, which puts a big chunk of it into a trust fund; interest from the fund goes toward maintenance costs.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 27, 2018, 04:18:28 PM

Uh huh.  Smells like Ponzi scheme. 

I'll take the freeze dried mummy thanks. 

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 04:40:58 PM

Sure does. But I'll be dead and won't have any descendants, so what do I care if my money is mishandled?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 27, 2018, 04:46:42 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 01:32:45 PM

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page)

I remember taking picnics with grandma in the graveyard, and not just around memorial day.  Just because. 

Picnics, tombstone rubbings, reading under the tree...They were 'normal' activities to me as much as any park.  I didn't realize it's just how she was raised and was just something normal to her as well.   

As such, I've never really understood wider societies 'rules' and etiquette.  Kind of a sad thing to lose, really. 

Anyone else ever practice this?

I don't think it's weird. I think a graveyard is a memorial park, and picnics are park stuff. If you'd like to spend time with departed friends and family, or meditate, or pour brandy on someone's grave as a toast, it's all cool as long as you don't mess anything up.

Me and my mother's side of the family tend to see a corpse as a chrysalis husk, and the grave as not particularly significant.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2018, 04:48:27 PM

^This.^

Quote from: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 04:40:58 PM

Sure does. But I'll be dead and won't have any descendants, so what do I care if my money is mishandled?

Because they'll stop paying the power bill?

And Uno will end up using your body in a show?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 04:59:49 PM

Quote from: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2018, 04:48:27 PM

Because they'll stop paying the power bill?

But I'm already dead. I can't get deader.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2018, 05:38:08 PM

Uno could probably make you deader...

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 27, 2018, 08:11:39 PM

(http://www.anunorthodoxhalloween.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Uno.gif)

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 08:23:54 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 02:15:04 PM

But then, I have a whole slew of things I'd like done with my remains, and none of them involve a solemn gathering just before dumping them in a hole.  But that's exactly what will happen.  I just have really weird relations with death.

Can't say I get this. To me, death is... the point at which a living thing stops doing living-ish stuff and we don't think we have any ability to make it start doing living-ish stuff again. It sucks. But it's just this dumb thing that happens because we live in a sloppy, hectic universe.

I've never understood revering death or anthropomorphizing it or believing it's what gives life value or anything like that.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 27, 2018, 08:32:25 PM

Quote from: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 08:23:54 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 02:15:04 PM

But then, I have a whole slew of things I'd like done with my remains, and none of them involve a solemn gathering just before dumping them in a hole.  But that's exactly what will happen.  I just have really weird relations with death.

Can't say I get this. To me, death is... the point at which a living thing stops doing living-ish stuff and we don't think we have any ability to make it start doing living-ish stuff again. It sucks. But it's just this dumb thing that happens because we live in a sloppy, hectic universe.

I've never understood revering death or anthropomorphizing it or believing it's what gives life value or anything like that.

Well, my list is very much not about livingish things or reverence.  It starts with letting a cannibal eat me and ends with the skeleton in some haunted house.  I just find the recycling approach a better idea than the glorified landfill. 

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 08:47:29 PM

Right. What I'm saying is I don't understand why that's important to you (or why death rituals generally are important for anyone other than those who are grieving). If it's not what your relatives would want, and you will never get anything out of it (because you're dead), why does it matter? After all, you'll be eaten no matter where you end up.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2018, 08:53:46 PM

:D  ;lol ;D

I don't think I've been sig-quoted in slightly over four years...

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 27, 2018, 09:34:15 PM

Quote from: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 08:47:29 PM

Right. What I'm saying is I don't understand why that's important to you (or why death rituals generally are important for anyone other than those who are grieving). If it's not what your relatives would want, and you will never get anything out of it (because you're dead), why does it matter? After all, you'll be eaten no matter where you end up.

I noted that what would happen is I'll be summarily dumped in a hole.  And, no, you don't get eaten in todays coffin/cemetery dealios.  Embalmed, stuffed inside a hermetically sealed box, shoved into a concrete tomb that's below where the critters can get to you.  Too wet to mummify, you just kind of slowly turn to a fossil. 

Like I said, I have a tiered list of what I would want done.   Modern coffin/cemetery combo just happens to be at the bottom.  But, it don't matter since the living will decide.  It don't matter, I just ruminate on the topic in general. 

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 10:20:24 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 27, 2018, 09:34:15 PM

And, no, you don't get eaten in todays coffin/cemetery dealios.  Embalmed, stuffed inside a hermetically sealed box, shoved into a concrete tomb that's below where the critters can get to you.  Too wet to mummify, you just kind of slowly turn to a fossil.

Oh? So you're saying if we dig up a corpse buried a century ago, it will look substantially different from a corpse buried now and dug up a century hence? If so, interesting, and I wonder how long that holds out. Are they still distinct after two centuries, or ten, etc.?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 28, 2018, 12:53:26 AM

Kinda depends on area and amount of moisture in the air, bacteria present in the area, etc.  As a general rule It takes 50+ years to go skeletal in the air tight, concrete tomb versions common here in the mountain west.  Considerably less in, say, New Orleans.  So, In New Orleans, probably not much difference.  Here in Utah, I'd expect to still find flesh and an incredible stench at 100 years. 

I'm not ENTIRELY sure when the hermetically sealed coffins become the norm.  I'd guess after WWII, though.  I know locally at least, it was common to have the local cabinet maker do a coffin to order as late as 1955 (grandpa), so certainly little more than a wood box.  But the concrete tombs that go around the casket were already standard then. 



But then Emma Crawford was buried around 1900, reburied around 1920 and certainly did NOT have a concrete tomb around her coffin either time.  Would be curious if she does in her final (third) resting place. 

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Green1 on April 28, 2018, 04:03:03 AM

Unrelated, but when I was a teenager I dated this girl.

We were constantly looking for places to have nookie, since we both lived with our parents. Doing it in the car sucked because I had a small Chevy Sprint - Chevy's answer to the Geo Metro that was popular back then as an inexpensive car with a lot of gas mileage.

I was very familiar with the back roads of Hinds and Rankin county, Mississippi and I knew of a dead end dirt road off another dirt road in the middle of nowhere. It was far from the city lights of Jackson and you could actually see the Milky Way. It dead ended in the middle of a lot of trees and you could not see the car from the road so as not to attract the attention of nosy people or Sheriff's deputies.

We get out there, lay out a blanket, and handle our business. It becomes a regular spot for us.

One night, she rolls over and we notice out of place stones out in the middle of the woods where we had been laying.

I go get the flashlight.

It appears that under the leaves and such, there are old grave markers everywhere! This is some forgotten, old graveyard that now totally reclaimed by forest!

Sort of freaked out, I try to dig up some of the more intact stone from 2 inches of decayed leaves covering it. Most of the markers are so old, the writing is gone on them. But, a few I could barely make out the years. 1820, 1855, and the latest one I could find - 1902.

Needless to say, we needed to find another spot.

But not many people can say they did it on a grave - even inadvertently.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Unorthodox on April 28, 2018, 04:31:36 AM

I don't understand why it was so off-putting. 

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Green1 on April 28, 2018, 04:56:53 AM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 28, 2018, 04:31:36 AM

I don't understand why it was so off-putting. 

More for HER than for me. After all, she was the one who controlled if we had sex or not. It freaked me out only because I did not expect graves in the middle of nowhere out in a wooded area than did not look like it used to be a graveyard. More of a wow than a "OMG.. we got to get out of here we are defiling something" kind of freak out.

I laughed hysterically about it.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 28, 2018, 05:24:24 AM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 28, 2018, 04:31:36 AM

I don't understand why it was so off-putting. 

Maybe there were more hands than expected?

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Green1 on April 28, 2018, 05:56:48 AM

Quote from: Lorizael on April 28, 2018, 05:24:24 AM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 28, 2018, 04:31:36 AM

I don't understand why it was so off-putting. 

Maybe there were more hands than expected?

I am quite sure the hands were still 5 to 6 feet still buried under our blanket. Nor do I think that dead person would have cared even if alive. The marker we were "on top" of was someone who died really young. Name was gone since that part of the stone had crumbled, but it was 1834 to 1842. Not sure about you guys, but at 8 years old, I was thinking about Star Wars action figures. Not girls.

Mississippi was a very rural area. Farmland and such. Probably some family that had a tragedy - a young death - on a homestead out there but have married, remarried, and long since moved on and sold the land. I don't think it was a slave graveyard or anything, but I did hear stories of developers in MS occasionally running across slave graveyards. Most slave graveyards, the masters did not want to spend money to have a stone engraved. That stuff was expensive back then. Still is.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Elok on April 28, 2018, 07:07:24 AM

Quote from: Lorizael on April 27, 2018, 08:23:54 PM

Can't say I get this. To me, death is... the point at which a living thing stops doing living-ish stuff and we don't think we have any ability to make it start doing living-ish stuff again. It sucks. But it's just this dumb thing that happens because we live in a sloppy, hectic universe.

I've never understood revering death or anthropomorphizing it or believing it's what gives life value or anything like that.

We think in narratives.  The ends of narratives are generally highly significant.  Death is the end of life.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Lorizael on April 28, 2018, 04:33:05 PM

Quote from: Green1 on April 28, 2018, 05:56:48 AM

I am quite sure the hands were still 5 to 6 feet still buried under our blanket. Nor do I think that dead person would have cared even if alive. The marker we were "on top" of was someone who died really young. Name was gone since that part of the stone had crumbled, but it was 1834 to 1842. Not sure about you guys, but at 8 years old, I was thinking about Star Wars action figures. Not girls.

Oh I really thought an undead threesome was a legitimate possibility until you neatly deconstructed it.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 04, 2018, 04:21:46 AM

Quote from: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 01:32:45 PM

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=atlas-page)

I remember taking picnics with grandma in the graveyard, and not just around memorial day.  Just because. 

Picnics, tombstone rubbings, reading under the tree...They were 'normal' activities to me as much as any park.  I didn't realize it's just how she was raised and was just something normal to her as well.   

As such, I've never really understood wider societies 'rules' and etiquette.  Kind of a sad thing to lose, really. 

Anyone else ever practice this?

We were at a funeral recently on my wife's side of the family. One of my favorites, a 90 year-old lady, explained that they'd recently taken a bunch of beer to the graveyard to celebrate her husband's birthday, something they regularly do, and he has been dead for 30-some years.

Title: Re: Curious: picnics in the graveyard
Post by: E_T on September 22, 2019, 05:57:14 PM

Wrong thread