Post by: bvanevery on March 22, 2018, 01:28:49 PM
- bvanevery - Brandon Van Every
- Brecon - full name not currently known to me
- Mart - Martin Art
- Human Hive
- Manifold Caretakers
- Manifold Usurpers
- Spartan Federation
- The Cult of Planet
- The Lord's Believers
Players are encouraged to post updates of their progress from time to time, preferrably with screenshots. However, be advised that you could be communicating important information to other players about the map, the disposition of opponents, or your own strategies. Someone could use all of that information against you, for instance if someone believes your strategy will be slow and thus they have more time to accomplish something else. Anything you post about your game is usable by other players and that is expected. Therefore you might want to delay your reportage about various things, rather than immediately spillng the beans about what, say, the early world looks like.
I think it would be ok / interesting if anyone else takes up the Challenge after we've started, or even after we've finished. However if you gain the benefit of all our hindsight, we reserve to right to laugh at you mercilessly if you do worse than we did. ;lol And to pooh-pooh your efforts as unworthy even if you "beat" us, unless it's by a truly impressive margin of victory, given all the extra help you've had deciding what to do.
Here's what we know on turn 1:
miserable island start |
maybe not a tiny island |
I'm thinking this game carries a high risk of early violence. Alien factions are never nice to start next to. 3 of the human factions are violent expansionists, and 2 of them are natural enemies of the Peacekeepers. Judging by what the world topology looks like, I bet Lal is right next to somebody.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 22, 2018, 01:51:18 PM
-That does, however, make it infinitely easier for my mind to hold onto a good pronunciation of your user handle...
Post by: bvanevery on March 22, 2018, 06:25:25 PM
I have now played through the year 2217 and am doing "well". I will say no more at this time. If my esteemed opponents get roughly that far and say so, I'll give a dump of what I've been up to.
Post by: Mart on March 22, 2018, 07:24:49 PM
Certainly, the starting placement is not boring :)
Post by: bvanevery on March 23, 2018, 05:13:40 AM
MY 2303 Secret Projects |
In MY 2303 I've got almost everything that can be had.
Post by: bvanevery on March 23, 2018, 03:41:46 PM
MY 2315 collect them all |
Take that Miriam!
Post by: bvanevery on March 23, 2018, 04:26:56 PM
MY 2319 diplomatic victory possible |
Won't be long now, but I've still got the remnants of 2 Alien factions to eXterminate. Due to Blind Research, this is the fastest I believe I could have gotten MMI the way my game went. I've had the quirk of being only Democratic for most of the game. Santiago is my ally and I did not want to upset her by choosing Knowledge. There was a time when I could have crushed her easily, upset or not. Frankly I still could, but I believe I save turns by concentrating on the real enemies, which are the Aliens.
I never chose Free Market because I've been a military expansionist the whole game. I never chose Green because I wanted my population to grow as fast as possible. I never chose Planned because I couldn't afford the penalty to Efficiency.
I don't think someone could win this game with a pure military solution faster than a Diplomatic Victory, but if some Luddite non-researching player proves me wrong in that regard, it would be interesting. I've built tons of Secret Projects and infrastructure, which in principle could have been more military units. On the other hand, my approach got me to MMI.
Post by: bvanevery on March 23, 2018, 08:02:53 PM
MY 2326 monument to their stupidity |
Post by: Mart on March 23, 2018, 10:51:31 PM
Secret Projects
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1K9DNejp2OeVCKYB4bXKP2RIHPinUSx2J)
(click to show/hide)
Post by: bvanevery on March 24, 2018, 02:16:14 AM
MY 2328 caretakers bite the dust |
Unfortunately I'm in the middle of Sunspots so I can't win the game. I have 704 votes. Other factions have 115 + 79 + 60 + 45 = 299 votes, so I don't have it anyways. Santiago just stabbed me in the back this turn. She broke our Pact awhile ago, and this turn she had the temerity to Surprise Attack me. Which didn't amount to much, just killing a few Probe Teams I'd put in the way of her Sunspot border incursions. Guess the sun made her loopy. It will actually make it easier for me, as she has the most votes, and shortly won't.
I swear I haven't deliberately inflicted any atrocities against any human faction. But other factions put their units in Alien bases, and somehow I've gotten a Faithful rating despite my best attempts otherwise. I've noticed that if you accidentally kill a Hive unit inside an Alien base using a chemical attack, your Integrity rating gets reduced. I played over that turn. He really shouldn't have been there. I've actually been upgrading my X units to non-X builds so that I don't inadvertently make that mistake in the future. I seized an Artifact and got a warning about other factions not hearing about the atrocities due to sunspots. I thought I had only seized an Alien artifact while destroying a base, so maybe the game is just daft about talking about atrocities against Aliens. Gassing Aliens is good, m'kay?
Post by: Mart on March 24, 2018, 02:38:48 AM
Holy !@#$ I think your Spoiler implies that the placement of Cha Dawn, the Caretakers, and the Usurpers a few turns into the game, is completely random.It looks that way. Playing against "standard" factions is better then.
Post by: Brecon on March 24, 2018, 05:59:36 AM
(click to show/hide)
Post by: bvanevery on March 24, 2018, 08:23:41 AM
MY 2334 sunspots ended |
Do I have the votes? I've got 834. They've got 106 + 63 + 49 + 46 = 264. Not enough. A few more turns of wailing on the Spartans will do it though. I built a pile of Trained Gas Shard Rovers that are coming into service now. I forgot that I could make Copters, which may end up costing me some turns, but I have some in production now. At least all my new units are Elite because I've gone Fundamentalist Green Power for the endgame. I've had a Treaty with Cha Dawn for awhile and Miriam just signed a Truce. Yang is a sourpuss though:
thot u wuz aleenz |
Post by: bvanevery on March 24, 2018, 09:48:44 AM
bow down to me you jerks |
OMFG you cannot be serious |
I just about pulled a John McEnroe getting this message. I've never had this happen in any game before. I've known about the theoretical possibility, but not the circumstances that actually cause it. Yang either had a Transport in a Caretaker city that I wiped out, or he had an Artifact that I 'captured' from that same city (it got destroyed) and it's a bug. Or it's something from way earlier in the game that I don't even remember doing. Point being, you can be really freakin' careful wiping out Aliens and still end up with X additional turns to play through because of this nonsense. Well, at least I won't have to worry about my backside as I wipe this jerk out.
MY 2335. When I Was Robbed of Victory. If one of you beats me by being extra extra careful with your X units, I'm just gonna groan. And I thought getting handed sunspots was bad enough.
you are cute when you're angry |
Post by: bvanevery on March 24, 2018, 06:30:15 PM
a good yang is a dead yang |
veni vidi vici |
in case of tie break glass |
So MY 2340 is your year to beat.
Post by: Brecon on March 24, 2018, 07:30:43 PM
(click to show/hide)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 24, 2018, 08:14:50 PM
MART?
Post by: Mart on March 24, 2018, 09:20:40 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 24, 2018, 10:11:40 PM
The good news is that I finished the game faster than 2340.
My heart just about jumped into my mouth when I read that.
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 11:17:33 AM
Secret Projects
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1VLlDihPNqnQPT6NSKmeLtA1KVpssGc0U)
And I will post another report after this, as I played already more.
(click to show/hide)
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 12:18:56 PM
Secret Projects
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1cTYONcC5kQDeUYLf9zYEVDRWFp3EwkUw)
(click to show/hide)
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 01:19:46 PM
not an island start |
I tried to optimize the position of my capitol. The square we all started on, was rolling and moist. I don't like putting cities on rolling squares because it wastes the mineral benefit of the square. I always try to put them on flat terrain to improve the mineral content of the square. I wanted that rolling rainy river square within my base radius, and to maximize other rolling squares. I also belatedly thought, if my capitol is slightly more southwards, I'll maximize my land claim on this rather small skinny continent. So that's how I decided where my 1st colonist would go, accepting a 3 turn delay to make my capitol. My 2nd colonist and Scout, I headed over the obstructing fungal patch.
When I was crossing that fungal patch, I saw a spot of Monsoon Jungle. That's when I knew this was going to get majorly violent. Nobody gets the Jungle for free on a map this small. I started with Explore, Conquer focus. Once I got Doctrine:Mobility I believe I switched to Conquer only focus. I still ended up with Doctrine:Flexibility.
I will kill you later |
I just got my 2nd city founded, and garrisoned with a mere Green Scout, when Santiago shows up with a Scout Rover and extorts me. Given her high morale and that my Scout is untrained, I think there's a very good chance she could completely wipe out my 2nd base. So I did something I almost never do, I swallowed my pride and paid her bribe. I hate that but it was the right decision.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 01:31:21 PM
griefed by mindworm |
I had to leave a Scout south of my 2nd base in order to stop Spartan wanderings on my territory. I got a 3rd city settled well into the jungle. I used the technique of not scouting the jungle. You do not want to meet anybody, they will exert a land claim the minute you have a Truce with them. You want to expand without meeting anyone and "offend innocently", just settling on "their" territory.
A mindworm shows up as I'm trying to move my 4th colonist into position. The pod escapes, but I'm worried my 3rd city might actually get fried. There's nothing I can really do about it; putting my colonist in the city will only get it killed, if the mindworm is victorious. Fortunately the Monolith enhanced larva isn't strong enough to do real damage and my city survives with hardly a scratch.
The mindworm indicates that someone is active on this part of the continent. I am doubting that Santiago slipped past me, so now I'm seriously worrying that it's someone else.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 01:56:13 PM
whose land |
I have to scout a little bit, at least to where my colony pod is going. I've got someone's border pushing against my claim, but I don't know whose. I've found a tasty mineral that would be key to all kinds of stuff if I can get it. Greed drives me forwards.
I think it must be war |
Oh crap it's the USURPERS. I've got the worst case start for this game, having to fight the initially strongest Alien faction + a strong human faction at the same time. It's almost the worst case for any game on a map this size, except that we're fighting over the Jungle. Absolute worst case would be fighting over dry scratchy unproductive land.
I'm not going to let that Usurper Scout wander around. However I don't want to fight him while he's sitting on top of a Monolith and can just heal. I will pin him when he moves off. I get another Scout ready.
captured artifact destroyed base |
Next turn the Usurpers merely move an Artifact into that base. I attack without hesitation and destroy it, capturing the Artifact. I want to put my Colonist 1 square to the north to achieve a good spread from my other city and work that mineral deposit. It's risky because I know the enemy is afoot, but I'm hoping that I will have beaten them to the punch. Meanwhile I've got 1 city desperately trying to get a Command Center completed.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 02:02:08 PM
cannot fight both right now |
Santiago extorts me again. I don't have any armor yet, I can't just block off Santiago's access to me. I do not have the productivity to afford any spare units to defend myself on 2 fronts, it's going to take everything I've got just to deal with the Usurpers. So she gets her bribe.
my colonist is screwed |
Bad luck. I move forwards 1 square and there is the Usurper waiting to kill me. Maybe I should have sent the Scout, you say. Well it was behind at that point, and I believe in providing escort for Artifacts, lest they be seized. Although, I don't think Santiago could have been in the area. Maybe I made a mistake here. Maybe the mistake was more basic, thinking I was going to get to push this Colonist outwards in the 1st place. Oh well.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 02:11:03 PM
high stress mindworm |
Now at least I've got 1 city producing trained Recon Rovers. My capitol is struggling to complete a 2nd Command Center. I've positioned a Rover to counterattack the Usurper garrison. I don't want it in the city because the Rover could become the defender. I suppose one could fiddle with the "designate defender" option but I have no real experience doing that in games. This will work.
A mindworm shows up in the north. It threatens to mess up my road. I've only got 1 Former and cannot afford to make more, this is a most desperate battle. That Scout has to stay where it is to keep Santiago from encroaching. The mindworm threatens to divert my attention to defending my road when I need to be fighting the Usurpers. Recon Rovers can punch through Plasma armor but it depends on the terrain the enemy is standing in. On Rocky terrain, forget it. I need everything on the front, and this mindworm is really stressing me out.
plural |
Oh it's 2 mindworms. Joy. But the fight against the Usurpers went ok, they didn't reinforce, and now I can spare a unit to deal with them. Can't remember how that went, but my road didn't get damaged.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 02:17:44 PM
pact with Sparta |
In a bizarre turn of events, my big bully Santiago wanted to ally with me. I'm like suuuure. I don't know what she can do, but just having her not do stuff to me is a help. Is this like when you're a kid, and that bully was picking on you when you were in 4th grade, but now you're in 6th grade, and you've hit a growth spurt, and he's not so big anymore?
I've got 2 cities cranking out Recon Rovers and they're beginning to press forwards. My 3rd city is trying to get a Command Center done. I've still only got 1 Former, which has started planting trees on flat rainy Jungle ground. That turns those squares into 2-2-1, like having a Tree Farm without having to know how to do it. That's pretty much my "book" for the Jungle. Plant trees on all the flat ground. Some of them will spread to Rolling ground. In practice, I've never recently torn up those squares later. The minerals are more valuable.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 02:28:57 PM
captured base and artifact |
I conquer my 1st Usurper base (as opposed to destroying). It had an Artifact in it, which I got to keep. All I do is kieep making Recon Rovers and pick a target to send them to. The 1 Former is starting to make forest minerals for my 2nd city.
die ogre |
Marr's ogre shows up. This is actually a good thing, as I had plenty of units to destroy it. It even had a covering mindworm that I hadn't noticed, and I destroy that too.
base captured artifact lost |
I take another city. The war doesn't have elegance anymore. I am producing Recon Rovers and destroying stuff faster than Marr is doing anything about it. I had good foresight that this was going to be the kind of game I'd have to fight, and I made it happen. I'm very much aware that if players didn't have the foresight to make these things happen early, they are going to lose badly in the race to winning the game. If I secure the Monsoon Jungle early, nobody's going to beat me unless, at a minimum, they did exactly the same thing.
Now the interesting random turn of events is that Mart merely has to go through Cha Dawn to get to the same place. Dude I had to destroy Plasma armor with Recon Rovers.
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 02:40:00 PM
First, she was going to the jungle with both starting colony pods and was polite, when I met her. She had no bases and I had two, or maybe already three, but I do not remember. I signed Pact, not thinking, that due to this, she will resume her travel to the jungle. So when she was going east with her both cp, and after several of turns, when I got, that Santiago is not going to trade to me Doctrine Mobility, I renounced the Pact, when her both cp were still in my borders.
Unluckily/Luckily one of the cp got moved to the jungle and another back, where she originally came from, so Santiago established Sparta Command on the edge of Monsoon Jungle.
Interesting is, that her second colony pod did not established a base right away, but resumed travel towards jungle again. And Parade Ground was found, where it can be seen on my screenshots. I was blocked from further expansion again, but then Pact came to help once again! And this is not, what makes me proud... :) Santiago, when I was in the Treaty after renouncing the first Pact, contacted me, if I want to join her "Crusade" against Cult. Why not? I did that, so while Santiago was fighting with Cha Dawn, I could send through her territory a colony pod south and establish UN Enforcement Base.
So in my game, The Monsoon Jungle turned out to be the doom for Santiago.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 02:55:48 PM
annoying spore launcher |
This thing is bothering my capitol. When am I ever going to get around to dealing with it? Eventually I did make a boat but it took awhile.
captured base artifact destroyed |
Impact weapons enter service. I've also got some modest armor now. Turns out the Usurpers are basically stupid about not attacking unarmored stacks of units next to their cities though. I almost wondered if it was a bug, or if I should blame the Yitzi patch. I can see not attacking a single Recon Rover as it'll disengage. Maybe the AI believes that waiting to defend with armor, is better than attacking something unarmored with hand weapons. It isn't, but oh well 20 year old game AI whaddya gonna do?
Notice that Santiago settled a city in my Jungle. That's the price I paid for the Pact I suppose.
get out of my jungle |
Things go smoothly and I take what is mine. MY 2175 is now an important milestone for the game. Don't got most of the Jungle by then? Then I'm winning.
where he ends up |
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 03:13:19 PM
cha dawn truce |
I meet Cha Dawn to the north. He's occupying the position that the Caretakers occupy in Mart's game. A more interesting difference between us, is that Mart has already met everyone in 2185 and has been elected Governor. I guess that's his dividend of Peace.
allied with miriam |
I meet Miriam on an island east of the Monsoon Jungle. We ally against the Caretakers farther to the east, aka west of Santiago.
I rush merchant exchange with 2 artifacts |
most knocked off the board |
In MY 2207 I've got a couple of Secret Projects completed. Marty had 2 done in 2200 but was working on 2 more.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 03:23:39 PM
have not finished empath guild |
I don't have a MY for this, but I met everyone sailing around and became Governor.
santiago pact again |
Santiago had ditched me as an ally some time back. I tried extorting her for awhile, but only got 1 tech out of her before she started saying "make my day". Eventually I gave up trying because she was always Magnanimous towards me. Like some kind of little pet Energizer bunny. Eventually I think she proposed an alliance against one of the Aliens. Which is fine by me, as eXterminating the Aliens is a requirement for Diplomatic Victory. I consider them to be the real enemies and wiping them out is going to be my strategy.
will my artifact sink |
With relative levels of Peace in parts of the world, I am aggressively fishing the oceans for Artifacts. I've got one coming home on this Transport, and I worry that the Isle will get it. But it doesn't.
will I regret it |
She actually didn't declare war on me until the very end of the game, so I think I mostly got paid on this.
rushing virtual world with 1 artifact |
shut out caretakers |
By MY 2230 my Secret Projet situation has improved. Those Transports have paid off.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
MY 2303 Secret Projects |
blind research slowing victory |
I do not remember sanctions |
still no MMI |
MY 2315 collect them all |
MY 2319 diplomatic victory possible |
magnanimous dumping |
this prevents diplomatic victory |
one more to go |
MY 2328 caretakers bite the dust |
can I win now |
thot u wuz aleenz |
OMFG you cannot be serious |
a good yang is a dead yang |
final world distribution |
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 04:40:49 PM
Secret Projects
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1WFjNTw3KsMrR3_Abdr2KFlgjYWKrLyz3)
(click to show/hide)
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 05:02:21 PM
This might be considered getting into exploit territory, but it's definitely not a bug or cheating. The game designers just didn't decide whether planting fungus on enemy land is a good or bad thing. It does take some time and resources to do this, i.e. my entire Former fleet, but I had already finished "real" terraforming. Also you can starve an enemy out under a Truce, it's perfectly legal. The difference is that you'd have to have a unit sitting on every square to do the starving, you couldn't just plant fungus and move on to the next target. The fungus exploit is kinda like penalty free pillaging. Although it takes 3 turns to plant fungus, and only 1 turn to pillage.
I got about as far doing this, as your actual conquests, Mart. Then Cha Dawn signed a Treaty. Since you can't starve anyone under a Treaty, I thought it would be too much of an exploit to continue the "free pillaging" ala fungus. I sent all my Formers home and disbanded them to make other stuff, figuring that Fusion Power would be right around the corner. The net effect is that Cha Dawn's southern cities were held in stasis and he didn't have room for expansion. For a long time I left 1 Former behind to obstruct his land bridge to me, just to make sure he wouldn't try to make use of a small patch of normal land on my border. Eventually I disbanded that as well when it became clear that he wasn't going to bother. He got in a war with Yang and had other priorities.
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 05:58:15 PM
I currently estimate your chance of beating my 2340 time as zero. You can't conquer the whole planet in the time it took me to do half of it. Unless you know something about fighting and weapons that I don't. I find that unlikely. Best you can hope for is how little you'll lose to me by.
Small possibility that balls-to-the-wall last minute heroic military production could catch you up. It is a bit of an exponential climb at the end. Only my 1st wave of final military units ever reached Yang. Those were my Elite Trained Gas Shard Rovers. They went overland by way of Cha Dawn forced alliance under the united banner of Planet.
Even with some kind of last minute exponential climb, you're going to have to perform exceptionally to beat my time. In that case you would have seriously earned it.
You could be Evil [TM] and use nerve gas on everyone...
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 06:25:27 PM
About fast conquest. Maybe you were playing/heard about 3rd Democracy Game of SMACX on Apolyton? ACDG3.
Morganites, one of the human controlled factions was eliminated in like 2 turns. They had no sea bases, if I recall, but Spartans gave some performance show by it. They however planned very well taking over each of the bases. With AI it is different, but still, possible to take whole faction in a matter of turns. With Doc Air Power only, no Doc Init and no MMI, it may be very difficult in turns I have remained. But the game is still not completed. There may be several Alien Artifacts to be cashed left, even by AI, from which I could steal technologies.
Yes, this "exponentiality" gives me some chances.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 06:36:58 PM
Admittedly one thing I never do is tweak Specialists. Can't be bothered.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2018, 06:38:39 PM
estimate your chance of beating my 2340 time as zero.b, Mart is oldtimer, and a CMN MPlayer used to holding his own against other experienced humans. I respect that, I been around long enough to know, and although my rooting for anyone but you is crap-talking for fun, an MPlayer of any great experience ought to be able to school you - literally, if you pay attention, and I know you will.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 06:46:18 PM
For Pete's sake I crushed the Usurpers in the Monsoon Jungle with the Spartans at my back using Recon Rovers. I'm going to be surprised if that doesn't turn out to be a decisive strategic advantage. No question it's a highly influential advantage.
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 07:10:03 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 07:27:52 PM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2018, 07:46:54 PM
We're not playing multiplayer, BUncle. Nobody knows how to school me against the AIs. I've been playing "how do I beat the AIs the fastest?" for almost 20 years, nothing else.Pete's experience against far tougher opponents trumps yours against the weakies you've been complaining about being, among other frustrations, weak. I could take you if I hadn't ruined myself with a decade of bad habits cheating at SP.
For Pete's sake I crushed the Usurpers in the Monsoon Jungle with the Spartans at my back using Recon Rovers. I'm going to be surprised if that doesn't turn out to be a decisive strategic advantage. No question it's a highly influential advantage.
At any rate, look at how this argument enhances your chance to gloat when you win. I've painted a huge target on my back, and don't let me down not administering an epic kicking...
Definitely, my turns 2307 to 2340 will be very interesting, I guess.;excite;
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
Pete's experience against far tougher opponents trumps yours against the weakies you've been complaining about being, among other frustrations, weak. I could take you if I hadn't ruined myself with a decade of bad habits cheating at SP.
Let me take this from the top, since at this point I don't know if you're willfully refusing to understand, or just locked onto a different idea that you want to pursue. Playing multiplayer isn't the same game as beating AIs. Sure you could do all kinds of great things against humans. As probably could I, you might be surprised. To do those same things against AIs is overspending and you can lose a race by overspending. This is like you saying "well if we were fighting 1-on-1, or we were fighting in a 7 player freeform alliance wargame, I'd totally stomp you!" Well we're not, we're doing parallel races, which I set up very deliberately and made very clear to everybody what we were doing. That was the Challenge as I originally presented it. Everyone took it knowing what they were in for.
It's like you're taunting me about a wrestling match and I'm saying excuse me, this is a slalom. And my opponents missed some of the gates.
Quote
At any rate, look at how this argument enhances your chance to gloat when you win. I've painted a huge target on my back, and don't let me down not administering an epic kicking...
I have already composed my victory speech:
"I won because I conquered the Usurpers in the Monsoon Jungle early. End of Story."
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 08:05:28 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 08:20:39 PM
Anyways, I bent early because I wanted to make sure I beat you. If I end up having any fault in my play, it will be from resting on my early laurels and not taking the competition seriously enough.
You can win / lose amateur bar pool that way too BTW. Sure the other guy's better than you, you keep missing. But if he slacks off because he figures he's so much better than you, you can suddenly come from behind and put 3..4 balls in at the end.
If I wanted to win super badly, like for money, I just wouldn't post a darned thing until everyone had said their games were finished. Best to let opponents silently distract and kill themselves. But it's far more fun to inform, and to do a little gloating. It definitely makes a better read, and it's gonna get better play out of Mart, at the bitter end.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2018, 08:50:14 PM
WOW. I won't even pretend I'm not annoyed that you say that in ernest and have not been struck by lightning. While you've been playing SP, I've been following TTTs for nine years seeing how MPlayers of any competitive competence leverage every niggling little advantage detail to the maximum against better opponents than the AI, learning against foes who have learned, and so on, which the AI does not. I speak rhetorically when I urge you not to come into my house and claim you know its history and construction better than I from studying it from the woods out back while I listened to TOP ARCHITECTS talk it over for years.Pete's experience against far tougher opponents trumps yours against the weakies you've been complaining about being, among other frustrations, weak. I could take you if I hadn't ruined myself with a decade of bad habits cheating at SP.
Let me take this from the top, since at this point I don't know if you're willfully refusing to understand, or just locked onto a different idea that you want to pursue. Playing multiplayer isn't the same game as beating AIs.
I still love you, man, but really. You gotta learn to listen and trust when I throws ya th' protips.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2018, 09:20:02 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 09:41:19 PM
while I listened to TOP ARCHITECTS talk it over for years.
I still love you, man, but really. You gotta learn to listen and trust when I throws ya th' protips.
Dude, I tried to write the next SMAC. Get over yourself. You don't know more about Single Player than someone who's been doing it as much as I have for 18 years. Perhaps you have forgotten that I live out of a car, don't have a job, don't have a wife or SO, and didn't have kids. That has given me a lot of play time in the Civ genre, with SMAC getting the lion's share. There is a level at which you know as much as can be known, about a game with lotsa complexity and random components in it, and no more.
Any great idea you might personally have about why you believe you're better at "AI races" than I am, has to be tested in the real world of whether it matters or not. Anything else is dojo syndrome. Your pet trick could be substantial, or it could be a minor detail in an overarching game design where stuff really doesn't matter. Having enough "stuff" will win, one way or the other. Minor details, the picky chrome, descends to the order of smalls.
I also used to do 3d graphics device drivers for a living, so pardon me when I say I've benchmarked things for money, to determine what is "better". There is definitely a Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle in the real world of making claims, and you only know as much as you've actually benchmarked. Which is time consuming and often not a profitable way to make the 3d device driver actually go faster. It's usually better to get in there and write the assembly code, based on your "principled understanding" of how the hardware works. If you do it well enough that your product succeeds in the marketplace, you're fine. You only have to do better than your competitors.
My "principled understanding" of this game, is that my opponents lost when they failed to take the Monsoon Jungle early. Soon we'll see if I was correct.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 09:43:38 PM
Anyway, if I'm wrong -I'm not, but Mart could have bad luck- you get to throw. a. party now. :D ;nod
BTW no excuses for "bad luck". I had bad luck. Luck management was part of the game. We could do "bell curve - no random events" but we didn't. Next time we'll probably think carefully about whether we want Cha Dawn, the Caretakers, and the Usurpers in the game.
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 09:50:45 PM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2018, 10:02:14 PM
I've played way more than most even here among the hardcore, and I've learned from the masters, but have it your way, you rool, Mart droolz; I'm done making it my problem.
Good game, to both of y'all! :D
Post by: Mart on March 25, 2018, 10:14:39 PM
I will continue this game, but also have to prepare GOTM in like 10 days, making the game starting with Fusion Power, and I wanted to do it with factions developed in "natural" way. So I will not spend all my SMACX time on the game here.
bvanevery, the GOTM will be a scenario with "slightly" modified alphax.txt (MGM mod). What I found, is that if given more turns to play, AI can better develop its strategies, thus giving a player more challenge and also more enjoyable game for the player. It would be great to see your take on the whole thing, and hear your opinion on how this new gameplay looks like and feels. There are threads on GOTM and MGM in this section, Command Nexus.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 10:21:01 PM
I'm done making it my problem.
But will you, at some point, end your diet of cheating junk food and actually compete in one of these slaloms? I haven't been eating junk food for 10 years, I've been eating Usurpers at close quarters. I'm surprised you pooh pooh wiping those guys out in a 2 front war. I know for fact, in many games I've played, that if you aren't ready on Turn 1 to deal with a probable Usurper threat, you will die. That's why I intoned, loudly and clearly, about the dire possibilities awaiting everyone in this game. One of my opponents (seemingly) wasn't ready and got killed. The other didn't even have to face them. Good luck for him. He could have gone though Cha Dawn with Scouts. Chose not to, think it will cost him the game.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2018, 10:31:09 PM
We might cool down a bit.OKAY, Daad.
B, CMN means he's a manager in this folder and the boss of me here.
Post by: bvanevery on March 25, 2018, 11:55:19 PM
Naw, I'm chicken and lazy - same problem I had in chess club...
I find educating a neighbor kid on chess basics is somewhat good for the ego. Watch out if his older brother shows up to advise him though, after you've sacrificed your Queen to make it easier for him. I lost! I need to find him a free chess program that has an "AI plays itself" mode, and decent animation / controls for watching that happen + replaying / jogging the game.
Need to find a way to get him back on the wagon with SMAC too. Gonna be harder now that he's no longer next door. They moved 20 minutes away.
Quote
B, CMN means he's a manager in this folder and the boss of me here.
Wonders never cease.
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 12:00:15 AM
What I found, is that if given more turns to play, AI can better develop its strategies, thus giving a player more challenge and also more enjoyable game for the player.
I'll read up. And I totally understand this not being your primary focus. It was for me because I dropped the gauntlet of challenge to everybody.
Post by: Mart on March 26, 2018, 01:05:21 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 01:10:56 AM
Hmm I don't know how that compares to where I was at, because when I look at the map now, all the Alien bases are gone. That said, I did have saved games in 2303 and 2320, so I'll see if I can count the bases up in a minute here.
enemy bases in 2303:
Cha Dawn - 15
Caretaker - 10
Usurper - 12
Believer - 16
Spartan - 20
Hive - 19
TOTAL - 92
enemy bases in 2320:
Cha Dawn - 15
Caretaker - 4
Usurper - 3
Believer - 10
Spartan - 22
Hive - 20
TOTAL - 74
enemy bases in 2335, when I tried to elect myself Supreme Leader:
Cha Dawn - 15
Caretaker - 0
Usurper - 0
Believer - 10
Spartan - 16
Hive - 10
TOTAL - 51
5 years later I reach the distant Hive bases and win the game.
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 01:50:32 AM
I'm going to guess that because I had the Monsoon Jungle, I had way more population than you will, so you'll have to make up the difference by conquering enemy bases. Let's say you need to conquer 45 bases in 30 turns and get MMI on time, to beat me by 1 turn (roughly). Conquering 1.5 bases per turn is slightly faster than I did.
Let's say you conquer 45 bases in 20 turns, a rate of 45 / 20 = 2.25 bases per turn. You would have only a 10 turn margin of victory. 5 of those turns, is just my dumb luck of accidentally making Yang hate me with an atrocity. I certainly wasn't trying to commit any and I don't remember it happening. If "look before you click" is the moral of that story, well whatever. Not gonna damage my pride to lose over something so stupid.
Let's say you conquer 45 bases in 15 turns, a rate of 45 / 15 = 3 bases per turn. That's more than 2x faster than I did. If you can manage that and get your MMI, I will concede you playing a substantially better endgame than I played an opening game. I would say well done, although I'd grouse about my 20 years of sunspots a little.
If you can pull off 3x faster, like 4 bases per turn, well then you were really motivated, and crafty. Guess I'd have to play again and strip down everything. I built a really "nice" civilization, the kind you'd like to live in long-term. It's got real facilities, real defenders behind walls, etc. Not a barely defended, barely won civ, which I guess is what you'd do if you really felt you had stiff competition. The poor citizens! What are they going to do without their Hybrid Forests?
So... are you the Flash?
Post by: Mart on March 26, 2018, 02:09:54 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 02:30:59 AM
I don't care about point score, in general. I specifically made sure "that's not the metric" for this slalom. It would reward people for building grandiose empires, not fast empires.
Time of victory is the challenge though, that's what makes it a challenge. We wouldn't have any other way to run a slalom. I do care about time of victory in general, but for much longer games on much bigger maps. So it is not my usual playstyle either, to figure out exactly how many Transports I need to push how many Missile Marines out how far to get victory such-and-such quick. But I've played enough games like that in the distant past, to be quite confident about taking on all comers. There's a reason I don't play on Standard size maps: it's not a challenge.
To be honest once I had the jungle, I played exactly like one of my big exhibition After Action Report games. Kept on slamming down any base facility that would give me more pop or research, using massive amounts of money. All of that could have been spent on military. Only when I got MMI did I stop spending on research facilities. I still built pop getters for awhile. Only when the Santiago nonsense hit did I go Fundamentalist Green Power, dropping the high growth strategy in favor of outright slaughter. Good decision as everyone moved a lot faster for the last 10 turns. Probably shoulda spent more money on military, many times throughout the 2nd half of the game.
Yeah I rested on my laurels and didn't do anything unusual. Now I think I will find the strengths and weaknesses of that approach, when faced with a real race.
Well, this is what rematches are for. And we'd have to actually play 1 of the 3 "late" factions to fix their position, or else I say they should not be included. Factions could still be chosen RANDOMLY, just restarting the game until the "undesirable" factions aren't in the game. Or maybe just having 1 of them would work. Or having only the Caretakers and Usurpers, where they might switch starting positions with each other, would be acceptable variation.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2018, 02:33:10 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 03:05:37 AM
Caretakers and Usurpers switching positions can be very unfair depending on what faction one is playing though. For instance, the Caretakers are more likely to get along with a Nature Loony faction in my experience, judging by the alliances I've seen. Now, if the humans are playing the Consciousness, or the Hive, or arguably the Data Angels, they very typically go Planned at the beginning. Aliens like that, so it might not matter so much whether one is next to a Caretaker or a Usurper. On the other hand, insisting that the Consciousness go Planned is a handicap on their choice making. And, Roze isn't going to stick with being Planned, past the beginning.
I think the following scenarios work:
- The players play Cha Dawn. Random opponents. Only 1 Alien faction is allowed.
- The players play an Alien faction. Random opponents. Only the other Alien faction or Cha Dawn is allowed, not both.
- The players play one of the other factions. Random opponents. Only 1 of Cha Dawn or the Aliens is allowed.
Post by: Mart on March 26, 2018, 10:42:19 PM
MY 2310
Secret Projects - no change since 2303
Just researched Advanced Spaceflight, shard weapons, 13.
The tech bar is red, so checking what it may be:
- Superstring Theory (chaos gun)
- Neural Grafting
50% chance it will be the right one. Having 5 turns/tech, 5 more, maybe 6 could be acquired before 2340.
Cult is down to 2 bases, but Cha Dawn refuses to yield.
Caretakers are down to 5 bases.
This turn Miriam attacked, there might have been a message why, but hardly can be read when the turn processes. Miriam, Marr and Yang are real opponents at this time. As I calculated, all AI bases are 52 now.
Yang is 14 turns from completing Fission Planet Buster. That may be a problem, so considering bombing the base surroundings. It is rather away from Caretakers border from which direction I will attack Hive.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1-6KOCnPtNUG9voJbxg69aLXDgLsxcy5e)
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 11:43:43 PM
When do the AIs ever use their nukes anyways? It's been ages since I've seen them do it.
Post by: Mart on March 27, 2018, 12:06:47 AM
It depends, about Planet Buster, sometimes AI just keeps it/them in a base and do nothing. But with what is happening now, I would guess, Yang will attempt to nuke one of my bases. Hopefully it will not come to that.
Miriam has PB in 24 turns in New Jerusalem, but I am going to take that base before that.
Post by: Mart on March 28, 2018, 01:03:12 AM
MY 2315
Secret Projects - no change since 2303
Living Refinery is available, but just building crawlers, and they are not priority now.
Researched Superstring Theory! So no luck, it was not preferred tech. The tech bar is now white and possibilities seem to be limited only to:
Applied Relativity.
Ready in 4 turns. But I found 1 AA near north pole, near the last Caretakers base. F7 shows, that Usurpers have 2 AAs still.
Cult is gone.
Caretakers are down to 1 base, near the north pole.
Also I took next Believers base, sea base west from New Jerusalem, and now there are only 2 sea bases between me and NJ.
Usurpers are down to 2 bases on that southern peninsula on PK continent.
Yang started to build Aerospace Complexes, just in this turn in 2315 I destroyed one in a base, that will be attacked first. Hive has 3 bases with many, like 10, defending units. And Yang is getting Aerospace Complexes, so he is going to be serious foe.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1nWluz7pbdncmYIuqgXxgv0gOsG5Qgb0m)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2018, 01:17:06 AM
And it's the middle of the night there, isn't it? Go to bed.
Post by: Mart on March 28, 2018, 02:15:39 AM
Conquest may be easier, I have 20 tacticals and 14 penetrators. Many are <13>, which means, that tacticals despite their -50% penalty to ground assaults, can destroy defenders in bases too. So I am capable of attacking multiple bases in a single turn. And only few bases have so many units in them, that I have to spend several turns for removing them. Usurpers do not have +50% defense, so they are easier than Caretakers. Only when they attack, which is now rarely compared to my assaults, they have advantage.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 03:25:32 AM
Wiping out Yang's air force is easy. You just keep hitting them when they're on the ground. Yeah sure he occasionally sends up a Tactical and kills one of your Penetrators, but so what, you're outproducing him. I did not bother to make a single Tactical the whole game. Good luck on getting through Yang fast though. He's spammy.
Of course it should be noted that I had The Cloudbase Academy when I was wiping out Yang's planes with mine.
Also I upgraded all of my planes to Shard, as I had piles of cash to do that with. Really excessive piles of cash.
Post by: Mart on March 28, 2018, 06:28:12 PM
Hope you have a super-reliable way of getting AAs out of bases without them being destroyed. Seems random to me, and most of the ones I tried to get, got destroyed.I am not sure, but it might have something to do with what kind of unit is attacking a base, that the AA is destroyed/captured. I would think, that infantry can do it and not jets, cause they are in the air. Unless AA can be a floating anti-grav device of some sort.
...
Or maybe it would be from what tile the attack is made, like if from the sea, then chances are different.
I remember several months ago I captured AA from an AI base, but I do not remember the details.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 10:21:34 PM
Post by: Mart on March 31, 2018, 09:20:57 PM
I attach two saves in a zip file, before taking the last base of Usurpers and after replay.
I will post later some info how 2315 to 2330 went. I got sunspots in 2323, so this eliminated possibility of Diplomatic win effectively, conquest remained the last option. I was, however, able to get Neural Grafting and MMI, too late though. I got like several AA when conquering bases and several other were lost.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 09:57:14 PM
My concession speech:
"I lost because I sat around getting fat eating mangoes in the Monsoon Jungle."
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2018, 11:10:58 PM
-I look forward to a rematch more carefully set up to eliminate random luck and determine bragging rights...
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 03:02:59 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2018, 04:48:40 AM
:danc: ;rockon ;excite; ;nod ;king ;liftoff ;hippy ;hero :unworthy: :adore: ;worship ;morganercise ;relish ;popcorn :clap: :ok: ;rotflmao :bot:
-That should do it. ;nod [shrugs] He's OG and played a heckuvalotta stronger opponents, like I said - and done his share of SP, too. MPlayer power is MAX, yo. (There's also a mild trash-talking tradition I've encouraged; it adds value to following a TTT as a spectator.)
---
How did I miss that MAN'S gracious concession speech? :doh
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 05:59:32 AM
MPlayer power is MAX, yo.
That's not why he won. Here's what happened: 1) he played a sloppy opening game, 2) I played an excellent opening game, 3) I played a sloppy mid and end game, 4) I ran my mouth, wanting to see what he could do, and also not wanting to beat someone "unawares". 5) he played an excellent end game. Beating me by 10 turns, 5 of which are merely due to me accidentally using an X unit on Yang. I don't even know how that happened.
Point is, a 5 turn margin of victory is not a show of force by some superior MPlayer. As far as beating AIs go, we are roughly equal.
I propose the following rule in a rematch. Anyone who does not finish the game in 200 turns or less, loses. Conceivably, all players could lose. I think this will remind all comers that they must play a really tight game. I'll certainly remember now, as will Mart, but it could help newcomers get focused.
It might be appropriate to play with "No Random Events" though. So that someone isn't being squeezed into 180 turns due to sunspots at the end. Although I suppose, sunspots merely prevent Diplomatic Victory, and prevent factions from surrendering, meaning a few more cities have to be conquered outright.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2018, 06:12:12 AM
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 02:20:14 PM
The liability I'm seeing of a 200 turn limit, is it may not be possible to research MMI in that time. Maybe I could have done it if I knocked off Santiago early and changed to Knowledge when it became available. Otherwise, I had tons of facilities, everything you can think of, and I still didn't get MMI until 2319. Hard to see how I'd shave that down since "building everything" is how I played the majority of the game.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2018, 02:34:00 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 02:41:24 PM
I guess dropping the 200 turn limit idea allows for various kinds of unfair starts. Just play through.
If I tell people up front that I'm going to try to win in 200 turns, that would have the same effect of reminding people to tighten their games.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2018, 02:59:23 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 03:39:51 PM
I'm thinking that rather than worrying about randomizing factions, I'd just pick "all warlike violent" factions for the next game. And maybe the player has to play Morgan. ;lol
Post by: Brecon on April 03, 2018, 03:02:29 AM
This past weekend I had some time and wanted revenge on the Caretakers so I tried the game again remembering lessons from the previous one. Developed centauri ecology then set research to military. Traded Cent Ecol for Doct Mobility with the Spartans and developed laser and impact weapons as the next two techs before resetting tech focus to explore. I thought I would then proceed to take my revenge but there were no Caretakers (or any other faction) in the jungle. I settled the non-Spartan section of the continent and then ignored the rest of the factions other than defending my territory. I finished the game by transcendence in 2337 (could have been quicker but I did not bother to micromanage late game and I forgot that the tech lifting energy production limits was in the build section and when I finally got that tech my research rate went from a tech every 3-4 turns to a tech per turn). So the second attempt had a considerably easier starting situation then the first.
Post by: bvanevery on April 03, 2018, 04:57:43 AM
I thought I would then proceed to take my revenge but there were no Caretakers (or any other faction) in the jungle.
Wow! Those late starting factions are even more random than I thought.
Quote
I finished the game by transcendence in 2337
Uuuh is that a typo? Because even with foreknowledge, if you beat my time by 3 turns by transcending, you know something about the game that I don't.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2018, 05:07:37 AM
I can't help the snipe, b. Forgive pls.
Post by: bvanevery on April 03, 2018, 05:18:56 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2018, 05:21:45 AM
Post by: Mart on April 03, 2018, 09:49:26 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
Post by: Mart on April 03, 2018, 04:48:05 PM
SMAC vanila may have less slots, but I haven't checked.
Post by: Brecon on April 05, 2018, 05:12:03 AM
If you are interested here is how it went:
With not having waste resources fighting for land I was free to build bases across the continent. I also built the WP and ME early in UN HQ which opened terraforming options and gave a nice tech boost. Then I terraformed the continent and afterwards sent the terraformers to raise some land and build boreholes. The energy from those was crawled by UN HQ which also built the supercollider and theory of everything along with purchasing a crawler most turns. Unfortunately I did not realize which category the tech for lifting energy restrictions was in and so for a while I was working with limited energy.
Post by: bvanevery on April 05, 2018, 11:31:42 AM
I could have outright conquered everyone easily 100 years earlier.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 05, 2018, 02:18:01 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 05, 2018, 04:43:06 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 05, 2018, 05:07:11 PM
The biggest difference I'm noticing, is that I played the end of the game with no crawlers from my capitol. I had a lot at one point, although they were only crawling forests for 4 energy, not boreholes. I cashed them all in to make some Secret Projects. Your capitol at game's end had double my capitol's tech output, about 2000 vs. 1000 for labs. It is quite possible that everything else about my empire was a complete waste of time, and only energy crawling the capitol actually matters.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 05, 2018, 05:30:17 PM
MPower is MAX, is all...
Post by: bvanevery on April 05, 2018, 06:49:40 PM
It looks like my understanding of the budget wasn't problematic at all. I had no idea that energy crawling the capitol could be this decisive. I've done it plenty in various games, but I was never really looking at it with an external metric, like "beat this time". So conceptually it's always been in the realm of "I guess this helps... but I can't tell."
Post by: Brecon on April 06, 2018, 01:46:39 AM
I view my first game as the one to count for the competition and so I was not interested in spending a long time micromanaging the game to finish a few turns quicker. Specialists were only used to deal with drone riots and bases other than the capital were sometimes left to stockpile energy in the late game. In total the game took about 5 hours (less than 2 minutes per turn) which in terms of real life time is quicker than taking over militarily.
In a multiplayer game this strategy would be very risky since the crawlers are vulnerable and one planet buster would take out most of the factions' research, although micromanaging would be fine since taking several times longer on a turn would be no problem. But I am not really sure of the differences between single player and multiplayer since I am only part way through my first multiplayer game.
Post by: bvanevery on April 06, 2018, 05:56:11 AM