Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on September 11, 2015, 09:41:41 PM

Title: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 11, 2015, 09:41:41 PM
If you haven't already, check out 20 Images of Women in Practical Armor (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=16754.0), where I came up with the design I'll be making here.  Not all the armor is actual armor and some isn't practical, but some of the twenty women are babes, and much of the armor is legit, to my eye.

I intend to walk anyone interested through how to make chainmail w/ many pics (though I'll have to click the webcam with a toe for a lot of two-hand parts, something to which I'm not looking forward) while I make my idea for a somewhat more realistic design for the Red Sonya-eaque "chainmail bikini" a reality. 

-Still crap armor -exposing your belly for swordfights automatically is- but still much better coverage, more comfortable, designed to support the weight of the mail better, so armor-grade thickness is doable -actual chainmail bikinis I've seen were made of ridiculously light links- and leaves room for better anatomical support lining for your hot-looking warrior-woman on the go - also, she's less likely to fall out of it just walking around.

Sorry, boys.

I've finally lined up everything I need to begin "knitting" (it's tedious, repetitious, work that I call Knitting for Men [nerdz]) but first, some concept illustration of the design.  (Knitting begins next post, unless someone comments first [which I would forgive ;)]).

(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16401;image)
This shows you the basic structural idea.  It's a round camail/ventail - you've seen them lots of times in movies - once in a blue moon, actual chainmail, not a silver cloth or loose knit painted silver yoke/dickey.  Normally, you just make the top of a chainmail shirt not like this, but straight rows/rectangular, sorta like a t-shirt.  Falls over the shoulders and body just fine, and any sleeves follow your arms down just like a t-shirt.

A round camail is not a great way to start a standard full shirt - the curve of the rows can be a problem down on the torso, where it needs to be straight (and I've seen a shirt or two made that way before, that hung looking bad on the wearer for just that reason; not the work of ultra-skilled armorers).  But for this project, it's part of the essential look, and I'm going to put all the concentric-row expansion links in a line on the shoulders to cause the front and back to hang straighter. 

See also the attachments below for pics of a full-sized shirt I made out of the tiny 16 gauge wire links (I'm going to use for the doll mail I make first) with a camail top.  I must have not had fitting me in mind when I made it; too hard to get in/out of and someone my height and build 20 pounds lighter could wear it a lot better.  Still, I'm sucking my gut in only a little, and the fit flatters - which you don't get with bigger links in a suit that is loose enough to fit right.  Something comfortable you can breathe and move in hangs down straight from your widest point -under the armpit in a shirt- and does not flatter the form at all, though belting it in helps.  The second attachment of the whole shirt laying flat on the basement floor is not reduced to spare the bandwidth and only be as big as will default display (reduced 50% so the forum will take it - if you're seriously interested in learning how to do this, click on it and/or download; at full size, you can easily make out individual links, and get an idea of how they fit together and the pattern -of the camail top, especially.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16399;image)
The basic design.  The loin flaps will swing as the woman moves, which is several kinds of problem, but, part of the style and all - and armoring your privates is never a bad idea.  This at least is decent armor for the neck and shoulders, the chest window exposes the heart, sorta - but gotta leave something showing or not real sexy.  This is a COSTUME design; leave me alone.  It does make working a pushup bra into the lining a lot easier to conceal, but it shows a lot.  The lacing and bows are born of necessity, so the top can be gotten over the head and below the chest won't try to hang straight down, ruining the look.  I figure making the bows red and obvious adds to the sexy.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=987)
With a fiery red mane of hair, just for looks, gloves and high boots, like a lady might want with this.

The next two are to point out how much better the design would work for colder weather over some clothes.  Uno asked for the blue-shirt version.
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16437;image)

(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16439;image)
A mail bikini top would just look stupid over a tunic, I reckon.



Mylochka has done a run at 3D modeling it:
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16447;image)

(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16455;image)

(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16466;image)
Considering the limitations of Daz3D and her understanding of how mail hangs, not bad.



Next:  we begin work on a Barbie-scale prototype; at that size, it won't take that long to complete...
Title: Making Chainmail tutorial pt.1: getting started
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 04:13:08 AM
I'm putting off how to make the coils you cut the links off of out of a reel of 16 gauge ('lectric fence) wire until later, but I will cover that.


To start out, I want to point out what common and cheap tools this takes to work in 16 gauge links this size (the larger 12-gauge bigger links for more serious human-scale mail is another matter):
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=981)
90% of what's filling this zipper bag is a lot more coils of wire than I'll be using to make a Barbie-scale suit of my semi-bikini design.  The rest is a few tools.  The cloth it's sitting on was also in there - it is not just there for a photo background.  A piece of fabric about double the size of a big washcloth (but a nappy towel would snag on open links constantly - smooth-ish cloth) could be done without, but is really not optional.  Keeping everything on a cloth helps you keep it together, especially if you do a lot of knitting while you watch TV (recommended, lest you die of boredom) with it laying on your belly or in your lap.  When you need to get up, just pick up opposite edges and roll the whole shebang up and set aside.


(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=982)
Regular pliers, needle nose pliers, wire snips, a wire coil and the rod I turn coils on (nothing with that last right away).

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=986)
Coil unstretched.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=983)
Stretching the wire out - you want about the wire's thickness spacing for ease of cutting - and ease, when the knitting of links commences, of threading onto the closed links in the row above.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=984)
Cutting.  Snip snip snip - these snips aren't ideal (unlike the snips Mylochka made off with last year, which had less-angled blades); you want to cut in a straight line, or you'll have a lot of unnecessary trouble closing the links and butting the ends neatly, and you'll get irregular sizes if you don't cut straight.  You want boring regularity of links for a pretty end product.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=985)
You start a piece of mail by making a plain straight chain.

...

I wanted to make it as far as actually having three rows of mail tonight, which is only a step away, but the webcam isn't a great setup, and working the mouse with my foot to take pics is even more problematic than I thought.  I need to draw a diagram of the basic link pattern for clarity I can't get holding it up close to the webcam.  Next time.

-It really is okay to comment and discuss between installments.  Comments/conversation are about the only payment I get for any project I post, and these things work out better for everyone when I'm not getting stiffed...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 12, 2015, 06:27:57 AM
How much overlap on a ring?
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 02:01:44 PM
Spatially as it hangs or what?
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 02:18:19 PM
Oh; you mean butting the ends when you close the links, don't you?  No overlap.  Everyone I ever heard of today just butts ends touching.  I don't recall ever seening the key-ring approach I think you're talking about applied.

Now, medieval smiths making real mail that would get someone killed if it failed in battle ran the links through a sort of punch press that flattened the rings from their spiral as cut off the coil and pressed the ends into flat tabs with a tiny hole, which they'd overlap and rivet.  Makes sense, but strikes me as very labor-intensive on a job that already was.  I believe that tended to involve working in soft wrought iron and throwing the finished mail into a low buried charcoal fire for about a day to case-harden it to steel.

I need to look around for illustration of more stuff, clearly.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 12, 2015, 04:33:30 PM
Yes, I was wondering about overlap, and how you got it consistent... other than practice, practice, practice.  There wasn't a close-up of a finished ring.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 04:38:32 PM
Just a circle with ends touching, I'm afraid.

I will look around today for more pictures that show details I can't readily photograph.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail tutorial pt.1: getting started
Post by: Dio on September 12, 2015, 05:37:29 PM

I wanted to make it as far as actually having three rows of mail tonight, which is only a step away, but the webcam isn't a great setup, and working the mouse with my foot to take pics is even more problematic than I thought.
The reasons that BUncle must take pictures with his feet ;lol. The mental imagery makes me grin :D.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 05:47:09 PM
Only got two hands, and need both for most anything in chainmail-making.  Complicates taking pictures of my process.  Now I wish I hadn't given away my wireless mouse, 'cause just moving the mouse to the floor is a pain unless I'm going to leave it there or not post in between taking photos.



Also, my eyesight has gone WAY downhill since the last time I chainmailed - I sorta need reading glasses to see what I'm doing well enough, which is also a pain when I need to look up at the screen to see what the webcam sees.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 08:13:26 PM
I found the camera, so I struggled back into the small-link shirt to get a full-length picture:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=988)

The lettering-looking markings you probably notice is lettering; that's the t-shirt underneath.  I had to use the flash to get it in focus and couldn't get rid of the selfie glare.  At least this has the advantage of showing one arm raised so you san see how it hangs that way, and some detail at the armpit.  Zoom in pm the pic and have a close look at details and especially the ring pattern at what edges show clearly.  I'm cranking up the sharpen on a lot of these chainmail photos to bring out the highlights and make the link pattern clearer unzoomed.

You can tell by the improved shininess at the armpit that I filled it in some later, which I wish I hadn't done - you need freedom of movement in armor more than you need your armpit protected, and that's exactly where I'd let it out some if I was going to work on it to get a better fit.  If you look close, you can also see a fundamental problem with 16 gauge on a live person who moves - the links are a tiny bit too weak and occasionally one or two pop open enough to let go of the surrounding links.  Never happens with much larger 10-12 gauge links.  A pity, too; the tiny-link mail would make a mighty fine mithril shirt for that small person cosplaying a hobbit in the LARP, but then, it's less of a problem the smaller the shirt and looser the fit.

...The patterns I worked into this semi-on purpose have suggested an idea for a fantasy men's sexy armor. ;lol

I'm going to back up and re-crop to put together some detail shots of the pattern and edges, then I have to draw up this stupid new design...   I ain't right in th' haid. ;no
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 12, 2015, 08:45:11 PM
So about how much does your shirt weigh?
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 08:50:47 PM
[shrugs] I'll have to go weigh myself on the lying devil bathroom scale -I avoid the thing for my own mental health, and it's not accurate at my size, so it's been quite a while- and then weigh holding it to give you a ballpark figure.  I'll do it with a big-link shirt while I'm at it.  Gimme a few minutes to wrap up something before I go do that, and I'll get right back to you.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 09:14:06 PM
Approx. 21 pounds for the small-link shirt pictured, 26 for the12 gauge big-link shirt, pic coming.

-For a split second when I stepped on the lying devil scale, I forgot I'd worn the other shirt upstairs, and thought "I weigh WHAT?"  (Actually, I'm only 20-30 pounds over my ideal weight, which is less than it sounds like with my build.  I'm pretty pleased I've been guessing my weight so precisely - and that there was no unpleasant surprise when I weighed w/ 20+pounds of steel on my back.)
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2015, 09:56:30 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=989)

This project is doing my ego/body image a world of good - not only are these tight mail shirts flattering, I figured out the fit problem isn't my weight going up; I made all this stuff back in my renfair days when I did weigh less -I worked hard, and it was thinning- and I worked out a lot between dropping off the road to be a caregiver and when the diabeetus was making my palms numb.  I'm too buff in the chest and shoulders for mail shirts that used to hang loose.  The shoulder muscles make everything ride higher -I noticed in my clothes shirts at the time- and look shorter; which also contributes to the tightness at the armpits.

[shrugs] I also need to groom my fur better if I'm going to keep posting pictures of my chin and neck in public, but I've always been chubby and am getting old; finding myself looking good at all is a treat.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 12, 2015, 11:23:23 PM
That's a pleasant surprise.

As for the weight, so it's like carrying a KitchenAid mixer, or a pair of cats, except that it's comfortably distributed.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Unorthodox on September 13, 2015, 01:50:57 AM
I LIKE that small ring one.  Makes my hands hurt just thinking of making one though. 
Title: re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 13, 2015, 02:19:02 AM
That stuff will still blister your hands, but it's knitting the heavy 12 gauge links that's murder on them.  The callus got over 3/16ths of an inch thick around 1994.
Title: Making Chainmail tutorial pt.1b: the pattern and turning a chain into mail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 13, 2015, 02:20:39 AM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=990)

The promised detail closups and three diagrams that'll carry you from a chain to adding that third row and making it the beginning of chainmail. 

I tried to get good detail cutouts mostly of the edges, because that's where you can see how the interlock works best, and get the fundamentals of the design shown, too.  Once you understand how it works and have the shape of the armor you're making fixed in your head, the rows where nothing but more rows are happening are booooring.  Those you just do without thinking while you watch (more listen, 'cause you have to look at what your hands are doing, mostly) TV.  Books on tape are fantastic for that, too.

Diagram (A) is just a few rows of mail to show you the pattern - you're now already ahead of how I started, with what-all I've already shown and said.  I'm almost completely self-taught; I saw a diagram of how the links fit together, each linked through two above and two below back in high school in the early 80s before I could just google for more making info, and spent years working out the rest.  Notice how the way rows works means you can go straight just fine, with a link on each end only hooked into two others, but the pattern really loves diagonal edges like on the right.

(B) is the chain, like the one dangling at the end of part one of the instructions.

If you give the chain a few twists, the links start wanting to zigzag into an upper row with the links on top leaning one way and the lower ones turned the other, like the first two rows in (A).  Thread a link through two on the lower half (C) and do it again, and you've got the beginning of chainmail.  I only twist two or three up like that at a time in practice, because the next two links you're knitting a new row under is all you need at one time, and all your can hold straight.



Little story;  my last year at my home renfair, about an hour 1/2 drive from home, I had a girlfriend from the previous show out-of-state also participating, and planned to mostly stay down there camping through the weekdays.  So I got some weekwork (rennie-speak term; the money from the show tended to suck a little for most people, me not usually excepted, and our weekends were five days long, so broke and bored - get something part-time to do and make money on the weekdays) with a shop that sold chainmail.  [shrugs]  I've met a lot of chainmailers but never really talked shop/how to.  He gave me a baggy of light, gold, links and a two dinky needle-nose pliers and I was to make as much three-row mail started strip as I could and he'd pay me by the foot.  Starting mail is a huge pain until you figure out my trick, so mailers tended to farm out the most tedious parts to any ol' droog, and save the shaping into a headband or a chainmail bra for their own skilled hands.

I broke up with the young lady pretty early in the run - she was the incredibly insane one I've mentioned from time to time over the years who looked a lot like Callisto on Xena.  I kid you not, almost that good-looking, and so brain-damaged guys who knew her were not kicking down the door to get at her, or not for long.  I actually worried I'd wake up one morning half out of the tent, killing her bare-handed because she stabbed me in my sleep and the automatics kicked in before my eyes opened.  Really; tiny little wasp-waisted blonde who looked more than a little like a young Hudson Leik and was a cuddly dear when she was calm.  Of course, I miss the little expletive.

So anyway, when I had to dump her, my plans for being around the grounds most days and needing something to do changed.  I think I made about 15 bucks for what I got done in my spare time (pretty girlfriend) on the mail strip the first week - which is all the money I've ever made off chainmail making.  The chainmail guy asked me a question about what I turned in, which is the point of the story; "What's with the chain on the end?"   :o  I explained the twist-and-knit technique for starting a piece, of course.

...Dude who makes the stuff for a living and presumably was taught by professionals didn't know any better than stringing links on a hanging line to start a piece.  You're starting out ahead of where he did...



Now to go start drawing that sexy manmail design...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 13, 2015, 04:42:29 AM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=991)

T0 tide everyone following over while I work on this design...

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=992)
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 14, 2015, 12:10:25 AM
Those are previously-posted doll pics, of course, but my talk about this project resulted in Mylochka finally finding the four other remaining barbarians we collaborated on (She Ebay-sold several more before the Barbie market withered early last decade).  Look for some pics in the next hour or so.

-There was a doll show somewhere yesterday - M bought me two Barbies for this project... ;lol

I'm going to have to smith some more nails into swords - either she sold most of the good ones I made, or we've lost track, or both, 'cause there's one sword among five remaining barbarians.  -But I did an awesome cross-guard on the one left...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on September 14, 2015, 02:19:55 AM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=991)

T0 tide everyone following over while I work on this design...

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=992)

I enjoy the smaller doll in the first picture. It reminds me of an evil, scheming homunculus. The other doll in that picture reminds of me of a made up Dolly Parton.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: vonbach on September 14, 2015, 02:22:22 AM
Chainmail. Armor for people with too much time on their hands lol.
I've heard about chainmail suits for elephants.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Unorthodox on September 14, 2015, 02:37:10 AM
That stuff will still blister your hands, but it's knitting the heavy 12 gauge links that's murder on them.  The callus got over 3/16ths of an inch thick around 1994.

Oh, it's not the blistering, it's the...I dislocated both thumbs and any repetitive work like that is bound to bring out a lasting tendonitis in my wrist/thumb.  Painting can get pretty unbearable for me, even, just holding the paint brush for long. 
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 14, 2015, 02:44:58 AM
Ah.  Well the blisters/callus is pretty impressive, too.

That's British understatement.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 14, 2015, 02:56:54 AM

Because of my current chainmail project involving a Barbie-scale prototype, Mylochka dug around and finally found the four other Barbarians she didn't sell off. (Also, bought me two Barbies to work with at the doll show yesterday.)

She doesn't know how the brother front-and-center in the pics below got the sunglasses, but he just looks so much like he's having an indecently good time cosplaying barbarians with his friends that a whole little scene wrote itself in my head:



Fade in on barbarians walking around the con]
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=993)
Michael had had reservations about setting foot in public in the costume, not least that 'the metal diaper would look fruity', but his friends said he could be the barbarian chief, the girls assured him that his body looked 'yummy' in the gear, and a few admiring stares from bystanders later, he was getting REALLY into it.  Humming the theme from Shaft, he got into his best deep, deep, Isaac Hayes voice.

"Jason; get ready to hand me my sword.   That dragon up ahead look like he think he can keep me down, and I ain't asking either of you twice.  Ladies; you just keep singin' backup."


(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=995)
;notes; Who is the man/Who will risk his neck for a barbarian? ;notes;

;notes; SHAFT! Barbarian Shaft. ;notes;

;notes; That's right ;notes;

"Hey white boy with the camera!  Sit on the floor and get a low angle.  I wanna looomm.











(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=994)
"Awwwww yeah."
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 14, 2015, 03:19:05 AM
"Hand me my sword. The one that says bad-buttocked mother fornicator"
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 14, 2015, 03:27:37 AM
"You got THAT right, baby."

Has anyone actually SEEN Shaft?  When the theme isn't playing, it's just not very good.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 14, 2015, 04:03:36 AM
"You got THAT right, baby."

Has anyone actually SEEN Shaft?  When the theme isn't playing, it's just not very good.

Yes. Roundtree was wearing brown leather pants and jacket in the movie, not the black ones as seen on the CBS TV series.

The Detective is visiting Shaft's apartment. Shaft has a naked women there.
Woman (dressed and leaving )- "You know, you're really great in the sack, but you're really Bleepy afterwards!"
Shaft- "HEY! Close the door!"
Woman-"Close it yourself, Bleepy!"

Closing scene-
Shaft (on payphone)- "This case just busted wide open!"
Detective-"Well, close it for me"
Shaft-"Close it yourself, Bleepyy!"

Uh, now that you mention it, the soundtrack was a large part of it. Sunglasses and leather pants, too. But it was definitive cool.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 14, 2015, 04:18:27 AM
Not a fan of the brown leather over here.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 14, 2015, 10:30:51 PM
...I don't know about this one.  It's half-adequate armor; it covers a lot more than, for example, what the two barbarian Kens I posted yesterday were wearing, with camails and loincloths --- but a fellow buff enough to pull this costume off better not have too pretty a face, or he's gone look pretty gay with the side-lacing.  I put that in to keep the front and back panels hugging the torso, which would reduce flapping when moving, improve comfort, and actually improve protection in battle, 'cause the torso coverage isn't going to gap open while you're doing some flashy acrobatic barbarian move just as someone stabs from the side.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=996)

I put Conan hair on the figure, but a bearded Viking type could probably pull it off looking a lot straighter...  I need input from women...

The way to do the lacing on the legs, intended to mostly solve the loinflap-swinging problem, would be thigh bands on each leg -one holding a knife sheath- and attach to them.  Independent leg movement, the upper loin armor ain't going anywhere embarrassing, and the rest won't be much of a bother.

...Somehow, this just didn't fire my imagination the same way... :D
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Mylochka on September 15, 2015, 01:41:05 AM
I like the design.  It has a Mike Grell "Warlord" sort of look to it.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 15, 2015, 01:56:54 AM
...Now that you mention it.  Huh.  First costume up to issue 8, a little bit.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 15, 2015, 04:54:30 AM
Dethklok's Worst Costume Ever!

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=996)

-Murderface laughed so hard at Nathan, he got punched out.  Talk to me...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 15, 2015, 02:54:29 PM
There's definitely details in need of being worked out in that design.  The thigh bands would need to be fairly loose, so the wearer could  do naturals movements like squatting, but the lacing would hold it up.  The torso lacing is probably only needed for about half as many attachment points -maybe as little as two- as I drew doing 45 degree angles, and all lacing, save at the throat, ought to be of something kinda stretchy.  Hugging the front and back panels to the torso would only get you killed if you couldn't breathe freely and twist around and so on.  Something like the thin cord in smaller bungees might be the way to go.

The biggest problem I find obvious is that it's one-piece, and no man who could squeeze his shoulders through the hip bands has any business making everyone sick displaying his shriveled physique.  It has to open on one hip and be tied shut at like the throat, ditch the hip armor strips entirely and sew some loincloth lining or something in to hold it tight there and make speedos concealable (no one should ever set foot out of the house in one of the barbarian getups w/o drawers on, or barbarian porno-time) - or maybe just ditch the torso lacing as multiply problematic (not going to actually fight in it, either) and you could probably step into the bottom part sideways through the side gaps higher up if you're thin enough to pull the bottom up over your belly while you get your head through the neck hole.

It's VERY characteristic of chainmail to be a trial to get on and off -my first piece was full hauberk, which I need to get back from the local High School principal now that he's wasted on that instead of teaching history- so if it's doable in five minutes or less, good enough.

-Probably that last torso-lace-less option, and maybe the open/tied hip, too - you'd want to look good, but tough, in the armor, and the torso lacing says stripper at best.  Also, there's not only things that look good on women but strange on men, women are a heck of a lot more used to dealing with something a lot like corset lacing, at least the ones who cosplay.  There's drag queens who wouldn't want to want to bather with the tangle of stretchy shoelaces you'd have to sort anytime you get out the armor made as in the illustration.  Now I have to go back and take out the torso lacing...

I haven't quite worked out what to do about the tie bows, and eliminating the torso side-lacing still leaves two to four ties, (depending on just how the thigh band is attached) - on a man, "this comes off" just doesn't read the same way -male stripper, again- so I think just tuck in out of sight.

I feel absolutely no urge to make this one -I ain't got the body for it- so little chance of working out the bugs in practice.  If anyone tries to make a prototype, though, I'd sure like to hear about it - and see pictures.  (The thigh bands would look awesome on a lady, who has the same problem with the loin flaps moving, so I should add that to the semi-bikini design.)
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 15, 2015, 08:28:43 PM
Yeah, this just looks better.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=997)

If the model is sufficiently muscular, one line just under the ribcage in front will still be called for.  -- An option I haven't mentioned that should work would be, if the hip assembly fits the wearer, make that one solid piece and open/tie where the back joins the bottom - chainmail is made of endless holes, so lacing is easy and has a lot of options.  This is certainly the easiest option for getting in and out of it, though tying the back would be a girldog without a helper - stepping in from the side and pulling up and down might still be necessary on one's own.  The possibility of some $#@! at a con pulling a tie put in back is something to consider, too.




Thanks to Mylochka, the temptation to pee away several hours replacing the black hair with a winged helmet and adding a white goatee before I posted was terrific.  Them was some fine, good-looking Frank-Frazetta-and-Neal-Adams-had-a-baby, kick-butt comics...

(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090418193809/marvel_dc/images/3/3a/Warlord_Savage_Empire_TP.jpg)
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on September 16, 2015, 02:18:01 AM
The biggest problem I find obvious is that it's one-piece, and no man who could squeeze his shoulders through the hip bands has any business making everyone sick displaying his shriveled physique.  It has to open on one hip and be tied shut at like the throat, ditch the hip armor strips entirely and sew some loincloth lining or something in to hold it tight there and make speedos concealable (no one should ever set foot out of the house in one of the barbarian getups w/o drawers on, or barbarian porno-time) - or maybe just ditch the torso lacing as multiply problematic (not going to actually fight in it, either) and you could probably step into the bottom part sideways through the side gaps higher up if you're thin enough to pull the bottom up over your belly while you get your head through the neck hole.
I imagine that BUncle has endured his fair share of incidents that involve costumed fools blatantly producing pornographic movies in a corner of festivals.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 16, 2015, 02:33:42 AM
I saw some mind-blowing crap on the road -and kissed a porn star- but surprisingly little of that.

There was a rumor that one fair I was in had rented the grounds to a porno company a few days in the off-season - but if a rennie tells you the sun rose in the east, it's a good idea to check.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 16, 2015, 09:58:05 PM
So I've gotten sidetracked into pictures of old work and into a new design.  All well and good, but it don't armor no dolls or teach much how-to.

I realized that there's not much I can usefully photograph of the rest of the doll prototype making.  The links are too small to photograph well, still photos aren't very good for demonstrating the technique for pinching the links shut -I just use the regular piers to clamp them flat and shut, mostly, picking up the needle noses when the ends don't butt neatly to make fine adjustments or I need to open a link back up to remove or whatever- and the prototype isn't a big job at that scale and won't be a great prototype.  The links are almost big enough for Barbie to wear as a bracelet, not exactly to scale, and there's a big limit on fine details of shaping.

I've got everything out in front of me to get back to work, though, and fashioned a set of duct tape finger protectors to keep the blistering manageable.  I probably need to just power through to completion of the knitting without much pictures, than back up and demonstrate how I turn the coils and see if my subconscious doesn't come up with better ways to demonstrate details of the structure and creation process.

I should definitely make Ken a doll-size of the Manmail, too...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 17, 2015, 02:12:42 AM
Protip: if you try this, do not settle for wire snips with the cutting edges not in line with the handles.  It complicates things enormously when the blades are angled.  You need to cut straight across the length of the coil to make neat-ended links that butt cleanly and make links all the same size.  I want my own snips back.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 17, 2015, 04:29:25 AM
Related protip: when you stretch the coil, err on the side of pulling more, not less.  This set is a little too much trouble to thread, the gap being a bit small.  It creates a lot of extra work and slows me down enormously at the most irritating part of the process.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 17, 2015, 06:08:22 PM
I gotta say that between less-than-ideal tools, not having messed with this stuff in about 15 years, deteriorating eyesight and never having tried to start a circular row piece at doll scale, getting started is balking me about 10 times worse than anticipated.  I think I've got about the right length of three-row to close into a circle for a radial camail, and once I've got it closed, the rest should be a lot easier.  --Taking into account a whole coil's worth of cut links I didn't stretch quite enough, which I pretty much have to tough out...

Working on this is why I was able to listen to highlight clips from the debate for an hour last night.  That was more-or less the doing it while watching TV I talk about.

Everything would go faster, too, if I didn't need to check the forum frequently while I work - I have to take off the reading glasses and finger protection to see and work the mouse very well.  Wastes a minute each time, and not something I had to deal with in the old days.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 17, 2015, 09:13:32 PM
I found a copy in old chainmail stuff -I did a lot of small link chainmail jewelry like earrings and bracelets and rings back in the day- of the diamond-shaped straight row camail that Barbarian Shaft was rocking so hard on the last page.  So I just had to pull out the lacings and lay it flat for a closeup shot of the pattern and design.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=998)

-A couple of things to note:  the pattern is turned 90 degrees so the mail hangs the long way out towards the shoulders, which is the opposite of the way you'd want it hanging as the top of a mail shirt.  At the shoulder tips, I gathered three links into the last and skipped a row, rounding off the shape just a little.  If you look close at various barbarian doll getups I've already posted, I did the same with the pointed ends of many or all of the loin flaps.

Incidentally, the barbarian outfits are nothing special without all Mylochka did to tart them up with bracers and boots and such.  I went next door and turned this on over to Mylochka with the suggestion that she try something not-naked-barbarian and skip the loin flaps, though I could make a set quickly enough; camails are lovely costume pieces for something as far afield as a Romeo doll done slightly fantasy, and would look great over a tunic and tights, or barbarian winter gear, or medieval soldier/page or something.  (She's in the middle of working up bunches of dolls to sell at a local doll show.)

One correction on my last post: while I was there, she pointed out two more barbarians she turned up.  The Ken has on a round radial/concentric row camail I still don't recall making at all.  He's next to me, and a pic is coming before I unlace the camail for a flat closeup like the one above (and for my own study to figure out how I made it work at that size).  It looks pretty good.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on September 18, 2015, 02:58:41 AM
I found a copy in old chainmail stuff -I did a lot of small link chainmail jewelry like earrings and bracelets and rings back in the day- of the diamond-shaped straight row camail that Barbarian Shaft was rocking so hard on the last page.  So I just had to pull out the lacings and lay it flat for a closeup shot of the pattern and design.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=998)

-A couple of things to note:  the pattern is turned 90 degrees so the mail hangs the long way out towards the shoulders, which is the opposite of the way you'd want it hanging as the top of a mail shirt.  At the shoulder tips, I gathered three links into the last and skipped a row, rounding off the shape just a little.  If you look close at various barbarian doll getups I've already posted, I did the same with the pointed ends of many or all of the loin flaps.

Incidentally, the barbarian outfits are nothing special without all Mylochka did to tart them up with bracers and boots and such.  I went next door and turned this on over to Mylochka with the suggestion that she try something not-naked-barbarian and skip the loin flaps, though I could make a set quickly enough; camails are lovely costume pieces for something as far afield as a Romeo doll done slightly fantasy, and would look great over a tunic and tights, or barbarian winter gear, or medieval soldier/page or something.  (She's in the middle of working up bunches of dolls to sell at a local doll show.)

One correction on my last post: while I was there, she pointed out two more barbarians she turned up.  The Ken has on a round radial/concentric row camail I still don't recall making at all.  He's next to me, and a pic is coming before I unlace the camail for a flat closeup like the one above (and for my own study to figure out how I made it work at that size).  It looks pretty good.

What do you mean by "next door"? I can interpret the previous statement as meaning either you live on adjacent properties or you went to another room in the house.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 18, 2015, 03:20:48 AM
We built next door to my mother's parents in 1969, Grampa sold his house to Daddy cheap about 25 years ago in one of those "I have the money now while I'm alive and get to live here the rest of my life" deals, him and Gramma did so, much possible family inheritence drama was thus avoided (and we have control of who lives there on top of us, which was what Daddy wanted) and Mylochka lives in their house now that she's retired and come home.  She's literally next door, in a separate building.  It's her house now, but Momma technically still owns it.

There are many advantages to the arrangement, chiefly that none of us have interesting lives needing secrets kept, and we all take care of each other, living physically close and all three of us needing care.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Green1 on September 18, 2015, 03:24:49 AM
I am sure the anal b*tards at the SCA may have a few things to say. But, then again, the SCA probably has a 10 page subcommitee rules on how a 17th century whatever should use a toilet to be "in period" and you can not use the cool toilet to begin with. But, your work is good enough you could vend at a lot of venues like Dragon+CON, Ren faires, etc. All you need would be a van that won't leave you stranded on some interstate and you would make some change. Plus, I would imagine vendors get treated MUCH better than volunteers or roadies.

Only thing is, you go to a lot of shows where you end up spending more than making. My parents do gaudy fused glass that only suburbanite trophy wives like and many times they break even. Though, these cons, Burning Man, Rens, etc are becoming more and more yuppified.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 18, 2015, 03:54:49 AM
Eh.  I was born to entertain in those stupid things.  I'm good at many things, not least waiting on customers, but if I go back, it's as an entertainer, or not at all.  Anything else is a waste, notwithstanding that I'd run a very funny booth.  I've done that, as shop help in faires.

And besides, its one of those things I do the work for the sake of wanting the end-result, and never learned to love the process; tough to make what your time is worth at all, and not a job, knitting mail 40-or-so hours a week, that I'd want.

I am sure the anal b*tards at the SCA may have a few things to say. But, then again, the SCA probably has a 10 page subcommitee rules on how a 17th century whatever should use a toilet to be "in period" and you can not use the cool toilet to begin with. But, your work is good enough you could vend at a lot of venues like Dragon+CON, Ren faires, etc. All you need would be a van that won't leave you stranded on some interstate and you would make some change. Plus, I would imagine vendors get treated MUCH better than volunteers or roadies.

Only thing is, you go to a lot of shows where you end up spending more than making. My parents do gaudy fused glass that only suburbanite trophy wives like and many times they break even. Though, these cons, Burning Man, Rens, etc are becoming more and more yuppified.
Not that many SCAdians know more than I do about chainmail, I daresay, beyond remembering more of the period names for armor parts (they don't usually know how to make without black leather) - and if they can't process that I'm playing with fantasy designs in this thread, they can go climb a (leather) rope.

P.S.  I don't think those cats do 17th century anything.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Green1 on September 18, 2015, 04:04:47 AM
Eh.  I was born to entertain in those stupid things.  I'm good at many things, not least waiting on customers, but if I go back, it's as an entertainer, or not at all.  Anything else is a waste, notwithstanding that I'd run a very funny booth.  I've done that, as shop help in faires.

And besides, its one of those things I do the work for the sake of wanting the end-result, and never learned to love the process; tough to make what your time is worth at all, and not a job, knitting mail 40-or-so hours a week, that I'd want.

You do have a point. My parents used to make pine furniture in a process similar to the Pennsylvania Dutch. In the 1970s to 1980s, it was okay money. I used to show up at school with stain on me and HATED all the sanding, staining, sanding, vanishing, sanding, more varnishing, sanding and even more varnishing up to 8 times!

But, 40 USD for a fern stand was an okay profit. But, the same 40 USD you could ask for today is peanuts compared to the time it takes to be worth it. It is the reason my dad got a kiln and started doing glass. Less weight to pack and unpack and less work.

I could see chain mail being like furniture.  BUT... even if it IS tedious at least you would not have the tediousness of an abusive boss!!!
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 19, 2015, 04:25:18 AM
I had plenty of those in the renfairs - the worst director I ever worked with, in fact, looked so much like the drummer for Hootie and the Blowfish that I still can't watch a Hootie video w/o getting mad - and that was 18 years ago.



I was shooping a shot wearing the small-link shirt today for the heck of it, and just as well save the part with the armor cut out and silvered to share here.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=999)
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 19, 2015, 04:48:52 AM
Genghis Ken

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1000)

-That, or prehistoric Kilnzhai's prettiest warrior...


I do not remember making this round camail at all - but it didn't knit itself.  Gotta untie it and lay flat for closeups to share here - and for my own study of how I did it...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Green1 on September 19, 2015, 08:01:41 AM
But, we all know Ken's secret. He has nothing to protect. Barbie just takes off in the pink 'vette she bought as a teacher/doctor/socialite/astronaut/nurse and shrugs his head at Ken hanging in the mancave doing cosplay.

But seriously, if those kids aren't dying out due to geek culture becoming mainstream and not getting new blood (even the Yippies and Beaniks died out), there could be a very niche market for full scale ones. But, it would not be cheap and VERY niche.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 19, 2015, 02:26:11 PM
Full scale chainmail?  What kids dying out?

-There's a thought in there about the downside of geek culture going mainstream worth taking about..
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 20, 2015, 07:11:38 AM
-Also, what's wrong with Ken's mancave?  You can SEE he has a fifty-gallon can of cashews behind him, and the biggest home wireless receiver evah.  He does look like the prettiest Klingon.  I'd say he was set, at home or the LARP...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 22, 2015, 06:08:25 AM
Here's Genghis Ken's Camail laid flat.  the innermost two rows look a bit pinched in because they are - the rows outward from them have random expansion links, but those two rows are collar, thus cylindrical.

That it's a semi-circle flat is interesting; I need to think more about what that means to making a lady version with the diamond chest hole.

I can't really spot the expansion links, and I know what to look for.  I need to go get Buster's camail back out and photograph it laying flat, because I put the expansions in a regular pattern of neat rows, and they're easy to spot - did very much the opposite on this one precisely to make them hard to spot.
Title: Making Chainmail -The lesson continued
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 25, 2015, 08:13:25 PM
Here's the camail/ventail shown on a person in the very first picture in this thread laid flat:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1002)

Chainmail likes triangles or rectangles with very regular straight rows in the basic pattern I previously diagramed, so round pieces like this require the expansion link trick.

If memory serves -I can go count if anyone cares about a precise number- I did the expansion links in 10 or 12 rows, and you can see a little, done that way, that it's really a decagon or something instead of an actual circle.  -Definitely looks fine, worn.  If you zoom in close, it's easy to spot along the visible rows of radial discontinuities in the pattern where I regularly added a third link in between the two regular ones at that point in the row, which hung off a single link in the proceeding row -making the above link linked to five instead of the regular four- and linked to two in the next row as usual -making it linked to three instead of the regular four- and thus making the row one link wider and introducing that much curve and the concentric-row shape.  One expansion link is very difficult to spot; many, if they're introduced randomly enough to prevent a pattern from emerging.

I concentrated the radial expansion rows slightly towards opposite ends to give it a natural oblong-not-circular shape, as shoulders are wide and it fits better that way - which makes it harder to count at the long ends, but the photo appears to me to show twelve sections/expansion rows.

(As the laid-flat small link shirt suggests, there are design possibilities involving patterns of different-colored links; you could even do crude words and/or images like on an old dot-matrix printer, if you want to do the work of wrapping your head around what goes where in the pattern, and I actually have.  More on that in the future.  Protip: copper is a LOT more expensive, if you didn't scavenge like me, and not as strong - but a few rows of border out of something like brass is completely period-accurate for a wealthy/vain-enough noble/king, and I need to take a picture of my mail hood...)

Note the larger flat copper ring on the outer right edge; that's a period accurate detail, if it should have been brass; it's the armorer's ring - the smith signing his work with a ring stamped with his name.  I go to the trouble sometimes.  Branding mattered for smiths, too sometimes, and an artist should be proud enough to sign work...

-I think I'd better draw a diagram (or two) of how the expansion links are worked in, for more clarity.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail -The lesson continued
Post by: Dio on September 25, 2015, 10:58:53 PM
Here's the camail/ventail shown on a person in the very first picture in this thread laid flat:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1002)

Chainmail likes triangles or rectangles with very regular straight rows in the basic pattern I previously diagramed, so round pieces like this require the expansion link trick.

If memory serves -I can go count if anyone cares about a precise number- I did the expansion links in 10 or 12 rows, and you can see a little, done that way, that it's really a decagon or something instead of an actual circle.  -Definitely looks fine, worn.  If you zoom in close, it's easy to spot along the visible rows of radial discontinuities in the pattern where I regularly added a third link in between the two regular ones at that point in the row, which hung off a single link in the proceeding row -making the above link linked to five instead of the regular four- and linked to two in the next row as usual -making it linked to three instead of the regular four- and thus making the row one link wider and introducing that much curve and the concentric-row shape.  One expansion link is very difficult to spot; many, if they're introduced randomly enough to prevent a pattern from emerging.

I concentrated the radial expansion rows slightly towards opposite ends to give it a natural oblong-not-circular shape, as shoulders are wide and it fits better that way - which makes it harder to count at the long ends, but the photo appears to me to show twelve sections/expansion rows.

(As the laid-flat small link shirt suggests, there are design possibilities involving patterns of different-colored links; you could even do crude words and/or images like on an old dot-matrix printer, if you want to do the work of wrapping your head around what goes where in the pattern, and I actually have.  More on that in the future.  Protip: copper is a LOT more expensive, if you didn't scavenge like me, and not as strong - but a few rows of border out of something like brass is completely period-accurate for a wealthy/vain-enough noble/king, and I need to take a picture of my mail hood...)

Note the larger flat copper ring on the outer right edge; that's a period accurate detail, if it should have been brass; it's the armorer's ring - the smith signing his work with a ring stamped with his name.  I go to the trouble sometimes.  Branding mattered for smiths, too sometimes, and an artist should be proud enough to sign work...

-I think I'd better draw a diagram (or two) of how the expansion links are worked in, for more clarity.  Stay tuned.

How does an individual squeeze his or her head through such a small hole?
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 25, 2015, 11:12:58 PM
It's JUST the size I can push my head through without a struggle IF I turn it longways to make room for my nose.  The hole's a bit bigger than it looks laying flat.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16754.0;attach=16401;image)

I DO have a big head - but a neck thick almost like a football player.  You don't want a lot of extra space, or it doesn't look like good armor.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on September 25, 2015, 11:43:03 PM
I DO have a big head
I concur with the above statement  ;).
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 25, 2015, 11:48:54 PM
Jokes are a lot funnier when you leave something for the audience to work out for themselves. -Wicked burn if you'd stopped at the comma.
Title: Making Chainmail - expantion links diagrammed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 27, 2015, 05:39:19 AM
AHHH!  Did an edit under the deadline to make my last post not make sense!  Double burn.




Back to business:
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1003)
The basic pattern again.  I redrew the first three rows to space them wider to make room for what I'm showing in the next.

A thing you'll discover about chainmail handling it and wearing it, is that it has a kind of stretchiness, a little like knit cloth, but gravity-driven, instead of coming from give in the yarn; the rigid links move relative to each other, hanging as long as they can, averaging out  the spacing and pulling as close together as possible, making the armor denser where it hangs loosest and making it easier to move in - it can be hung the direction I've drawn it twice now, or turned the other way - but you don't want to do that latter direction, because the links hang as open as they can, exposing maximum openings for arrows and blade points to find a way in, even forcing a link or two open.  Also, the armor gets stiffer, not more flexible and denser, as when hung the direction I've drawn and shown in photographs.  There's just no upside to hanging it in the stiff hang-open way; it's plainly the wrong direction.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1004)

In the bottom row here, extra links have been added in two places, as indicated above.  To give you an idea of how that works out in subsequent rows, I drew a little more.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1005)

I brought up the business about the right and wrong direction to let the pattern hang this time because it's related to how and why this works - the links pull on each other from the sides as well top to bottom, and where a discontinuity is introduced, as this technique does, something somewhat counterintuitive  happens; you'd think the link that only interlocks with three others, instead of four, would be a weak spot - but it's actually stronger because it's extra, and the links naturally hang closer together at those points where the links smooth out the change as the regular  pattern resumes.

Those places are hard to spot in various photos I've posted because chainmail hung right hangs pretty dense everywhere, not naturally spacing nearly so wide as drawn on any piece of mail that fits.

Note that the first diagram has eight links to the row, and the last still does - it's the same drawing each time, with some links added in the next two.  In the third illustration, it's still eight at the top, but ten links in the bottom row, and the increased width/density makes it hang potentially wider and pulls the latter rows into the beginning of a curve, where the top of the piece is still straight.  Chainmail is very forgiving of the shape of the wearer because of the same tendencies when hung in the right direction.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 27, 2015, 08:46:21 PM
Any questions?
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on October 06, 2015, 02:59:40 AM
None at this time.
I have doubts about my understanding, but those drawings were something I was waiting for.
At this point, I figure I have written instructions, pictures, and diagrams. The next step would be attempting to make a swatch of it myself, to get a feel for it and confirm whether or not I grasp the concept.

The rest of my year appears to be busy.
It has to be said- This thread is pure fascination. :P
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 06, 2015, 03:43:59 AM
I need to talk about/show link-making from scratch (a roll of wire) and go into the most basic poncho-like design of the simplest sort of mail shirt before we've got a complete beginners' course. -But I've definitely provided a LOT more information already than I started with.

I'd have loved to have been able to look up some of this stuff on the nets in the early 90s when I had to work it out the hard way...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on October 10, 2015, 12:27:37 AM
I need to talk about/show link-making from scratch (a roll of wire) and go into the most basic poncho-like design of the simplest sort of mail shirt before we've got a complete beginners' course. -But I've definitely provided a LOT more information already than I started with.

I'd have loved to have been able to look up some of this stuff on the nets in the early 90s when I had to work it out the hard way...
I say that BUncle works on accumulating the necessary motivation to complete the tutorial about making chainmail from the simplest materials.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 09, 2016, 02:33:15 AM
I do believe my man Dio has a point...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 07:27:22 PM
I actually did a little work on this the other night.  The three initial rows were a pain to close into a circle, between links I didn't pull open enough in the cutting/link-making phase and the deterioration of my eyesight since I was doing much chainmailing last.  -Also, I'm just rusty.  I'm starting off with a closed round camail -even though the finished armor will be open in the front and laced- because that's better for working out the pattern.  I'll take out a vertical row in front when I get further along.

ANYway, I've finally buckled down and gotten past what ought to prove to be the most annoying part of the top - for several rows to come, it'll be just going around the edge in a circle, frequently adding expansion links over the shoulders.  Nothing worth a picture for a while, I'm afraid.  When I get the open camail top part done, I'm going to need to find the undressed Barbie Mylochka got me for this, to hang the armor on as I work out the torso.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 21, 2016, 12:05:06 AM
When I saw the title on the page this time, I somehow thought this was about initiating chain letters.

 ( chagrinned smiley )
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 12:08:55 AM
"Rusty Edge, of Madison Wisconsin, broke this armor and went deaf in one ear."
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 21, 2016, 12:42:51 AM
:-D
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 05:28:13 PM
;notes; I can still hear you sayin' you would never break the chain ;notes;
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 21, 2016, 08:27:17 PM
I found some shots of my favorite model wearing a camail and princess hood...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Unorthodox on March 21, 2016, 09:04:42 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 21, 2016, 09:15:23 PM
:D ;nod
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 21, 2016, 10:03:40 PM
Note that the camail is the same one as pictured first in the OP on a much larger model.  It hangs a LOT lower on her to make up the difference in width.

At the size she was when those were taken -child is tall, and grows like a weed- I could have added a tube the width of her torso, about the same number of links as in the camail, and had a full shirt...



In the main, though, mail shirts are better if you think poncho with the sides sewn together under the armpits.  Both easier to make and hang better...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2016, 11:58:50 PM
Cool. Knights of the Panda, apparently.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2016, 12:04:17 AM
I'm wrapped up in story editing for at least the rest of the evening - tomorrow, if I run out of something to do online later in the day, I'm spending at least an hour on the doll mail...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 27, 2016, 03:44:37 AM
...So, I've blown about all the time I can on that story until I get some responses -I've tried to contact all the other contributors, not least because I think there's more adventures to be told with those characters in that world, and I'd like to get at least eastsidebagel in on that- and I probably am not going to find any distractions on a Sunday to get out of spending some time working on the mail...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2016, 03:16:49 AM
Okay; I'm not gonna get an awful lot done in the next 45 minutes, but I am knitting...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2016, 04:16:21 AM
...Actually, not quite two rows - but because I'm working out where expansion links go, and I may have messed up the symmetry...

Takes a lot longer when it's not straight rows you're knitting.

Oh well; bed's calling.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 04, 2016, 11:22:49 PM
http://theawesomer.com/chainmaille-shoes/285004/ (http://theawesomer.com/chainmaille-shoes/285004/)
Quote
(http://theawesomer.com/photos/2014/07/chainmaille_shoes_1.jpg)

Chainmaille Shoes       $265  Buym

PaleoBarefoot’s (http://portal.gost-barefoots.com/en/index.php?section=gallery&cid=30) minimalist PRONATIV shoes give the sensation of walking barefoot, but protect your feet and provide grip thanks to their chainmaille construction. They’re great for hiking and running, even through mud and water.

Read more: http://theawesomer.com/chainmaille-shoes/285004/#ixzz44tn4JC8r (http://theawesomer.com/chainmaille-shoes/285004/#ixzz44tn4JC8r)
Follow us: @technabob on Twitter | technabob on Facebook


 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSm11kP79zo&feature=youtu.be#)

I am deeply dubious.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 05, 2016, 01:25:13 AM
I can't decide if that's a cool idea or a disaster in waiting,
But I know I wouldn't sit around a campfire in them.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 05, 2016, 01:41:25 AM
I just can't believe they work for very long - it appears to be about the same size and gage links I do the doll mail in, though I can't spot any joins in the links in closeup shots, which would make it a great deal stronger and more durable,  and I still can't believe you could run very far in them without tearing them up.

Also, hell's own set of ring impressions in your soles.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on April 05, 2016, 03:50:31 AM
I can't decide if that's a cool idea or a disaster in waiting,
But I know I wouldn't sit around a campfire in them.
I concur with the above statement because it illustrates that the shoes appear impractical. I remember when toe shoes were a fad among the outdoors people.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 06, 2016, 03:42:31 AM
I have my doubts that they even work for long.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on April 06, 2016, 06:00:19 AM
I can only imagine the pain your feet would experience after walking in those for several miles across a forest or desert trail.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 06, 2016, 06:50:11 PM
Desert? That would be like the campfire. The shoes would become a heat sink.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 06, 2016, 09:25:34 PM
Many versions -not the one pictured, but many- have a sort of multi-part paw-print sole built in; those, at least, would take a lot longer to wear out the bottom.  You would totally wear through the links before all that long in the ones pictured, especially running on any paved surfaces.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on April 07, 2016, 05:34:10 PM
ooooooh. Ah. So practical. So MASCULINE. Not. ;sarc
Many versions -not the one pictured, but many- have a sort of multi-part paw-print sole built in; those, at least, would take a lot longer to wear out the bottom.  You would totally wear through the links before all that long in the ones pictured, especially running on any paved surfaces.
I would still much rather purchase a pair of toe shoes over the chain link imposters in that article.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2016, 05:36:39 PM
I might rather have the chainmail footies than rely on someone guessing the size and shape of my toes right...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Dio on April 07, 2016, 05:39:39 PM
I might rather have the chainmail footies than rely on someone guessing the size and shape of my toes right...
I wonder if the people that make toe shoes could create a mold of your foot to produce the exterior outline.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2016, 05:41:26 PM
I don't care - I'm broke from the footies.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 30, 2016, 09:56:08 PM
One of Buster's birthday presents:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=1216)

It's princess armor - one of those sleeve things, done in copper chainmail, that ends with the tip between the second and third finger.  Armor value non-zero -for the wrist, mostly- but it's a fantasy piece for a 13 year-old who's not grown out of the princess phase completely, but has grown quite fond of adventure fictions...
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 30, 2016, 11:55:53 PM
Well, the copper looks great. I suppose it's heavier than steel.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 01, 2016, 12:18:00 AM
I never noticed the difference, certainly not on something small like that.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 08, 2018, 09:16:46 PM
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKBR1ZG?ref_=pgi_5xb86tn5azi6ox7zex2j05fk4znj&tag=geminiadus-20&ascsubtag=pgi-DEL-1-DSK-M1L1qTiAVRLlbl5J (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKBR1ZG?ref_=pgi_5xb86tn5azi6ox7zex2j05fk4znj&tag=geminiadus-20&ascsubtag=pgi-DEL-1-DSK-M1L1qTiAVRLlbl5J)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vHYfMxAhL._SL1001_.jpg)
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Unorthodox on February 08, 2018, 09:47:41 PM
oh...

Crap.  Where'd I put that....

Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Green1 on February 10, 2018, 06:46:31 AM
You know, there are arts and crafts shows that may like some of your creations. There is a large subset of people that love handcrafts and fill their houses with them.

They are a lot less BS than Ren Faire (juried shows, required casting meetings, commitment for many weekends, dress code,some rennies, etc). Mrs. Green and I are going to do a fairly large show in New Iberia in March. It will be our third show total and first this year. Some of the smaller church ones even give you a table to use and are inside. Once you get one or two on your belt, you hit up the larger non-juried in your area.

...then you can get into juried shows (BIG money) and eventually get crafts guilded.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 10, 2018, 06:30:14 PM
Fooling with craft shows sounds like a non-starter, even for Mylochka, who's far less of a homebody than I.

-But tell me about what you've been doing, please.  Sculpey jewelry or something like that, isn't it?  Pics a big plus.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Green1 on February 10, 2018, 11:37:56 PM
Fooling with craft shows sounds like a non-starter, even for Mylochka, who's far less of a homebody than I.

-But tell me about what you've been doing, please.  Sculpey jewelry or something like that, isn't it?  Pics a big plus.

It is sculpey. The Mrs. does most of it, I set up and book events, and do general labor. The stuff she does not want to do.

I hear you on being misanthropic and not wanting to deal with people. Having to book things, start up costs, travel, etc.

BUT...

We are talking small to medium income stream with..

 - NO jerk organizations who probably do not have your best interests at heart.

Even my best jobs really did not care about me. I was doing things that they themselves did not want to do many making times with only enough pay to deliver to the landlord and utilities and maybe a beer or three to wallow in poverty unless I did nothing but work. The moment I fell out of favor, got burnt out from overwork, maybe had challenges I was struggling with (usually exacerbated from crazy hours or lack of money), I could be replaced by any of hundreds of names from a full hard drive full of people wanting my spot. Either that or a friend of a friend of a friend they would prefer be there. The worst places made sure I knew that and put it over my head at all times.

 - Make your own schedule (to a certain extent)

During the make phase, if you want to work 2 AM to 12 noon one day you can. If you want to work 24 hours that day, you can. If you feel like crud and need a break, you can take off without having to spend money to someone with a doctorate proving you are sick because you might be "lazy and a liar". The only thing somewhat set in stone is when you go to the shows you have to be there at a certain time and stay there till a certain time. But even if you miss a show, all you lose is your booth fee and the opportunity to make money that weekend till the next show next year. You are not banned from ever doing crafts again nor need to go on a job hunt.

Those things are why I suggest it to anyone kind of artsy.
Title: Re: Making Chainmail
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 21, 2025, 01:28:39 AM
I'm bumping this to say a few true words about my friend Green, whom I miss terribly.

He's an illustration of what I like to say that I gladly can work with ANYone basically well-intentioned.  Like, I've almost explicitly accused him of being a serial drunk poster any number of times, and he ain't even accused me of -at least- exaggerating, he being a good sport and not into drama as other than a favored spectator sport.  I do not post a fifty-dancing-Lal post of ecstasy when he calls me a "bitervet' at the BEST of times -for all that he's got a factual basis to fight on THAT hill- and a few times he's shown a failure of reading my mood in the timing bringing THAT bit of unloved teasing into something my back's really up about.  He doesn't listen worth a durn -see this thread- and sometimes spouts the MOST outrageous nonsense, especially problematic when he speculates on some bit of drama in this community underinformed.  I get a little nervous when I see he's posting in a sensitive thread, I honestly do.  It's rare that he posts entirely on topic to the thread he's in, not least because he's WAY more interested in MMOs than our 4xTBS.  He's definitely a weirdo, even by our local standards.

^All that's true.^  It is.  Also true is that I love this silly guy.  He's my friend, no malice in his behavior here, he likes me, and it's reciprocated.  He entertains me and makes me laugh - and I'm sure that's also mutual.  I just wish he'd stay involved for longer spells and drift away for shorter.  I miss 'im.
Templates: 1: Printpage (default).
Sub templates: 4: init, print_above, main, print_below.
Language files: 4: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 31 - 840KB. (show)
Queries used: 14.

[Show Queries]