Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Earthmichael on March 08, 2012, 03:15:58 PM

Title: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on March 08, 2012, 03:15:58 PM
Many people only build roads where they actually need to travel, not realizing the importance of roads to terraforming in general.

Most people build 1 speed formers, due to the high cost of 2 speed formers.  So a former needs to waste a turn entering a square to be terraformed, and then start terraforming next turn.

This is where roads enter the picture.  Even if a former has moved 2 squares along a road, the 1/3 movement point left is enough to get a full turn of terraforming done.

So my strategy is to send some advance terraformer units building roads.  You can even build a couple of the expensive 2 speed formers for this, since they are dedicated road-building terraformers.

Then I create packs of terraformers that follow the roads, doing whatever terraforming I want.  For example, I may have 4 terraformers that are going around planting forests.  As long as they are moving on road, at most 2 squares from their previous location, they can build a forest EVERY TURN!

You want to be careful about plotting the route of your terraforming groups, to make sure that they can be productive every turn.  If you do this, you will have a tremendous terraforming advantage over the players who only build roads as actual highways.  You can have packs of formers productive every turn, while their formers packs have a one turn gap between terraforming each square, as each former spends a turn moving into the next square to terraform.

There is an exploit that can help terraformers (that do not use the road strategy I have outlined) be a little more effective.  But this exploit is banned by most players, and is explicitly banned for games hosted by this site.  See number 10 at
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1519.msg4448#msg4448 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1519.msg4448#msg4448)

The good news is that you can be MORE efficient than this exploit using the road strategy, and that this exploit will not work when using the road strategy.  (You can test this for yourself.  Move 4 terraformers 1 or 2 spaces down a road.  Build a forest.  Now try to reactivate any of the 4 terraformers.  They will not reactivate; the exploit will not work.)  Which only makes sense: if you move 1 or 2 spaces down a road and then terraform every turn, you are getting the maximum possible value out of your terraformers.  No exploit will allow you to do better than that, and you can know that you are getting the most effective use of your terraformers, period, and feel good that you are doing it with a perfectly legal strategy!
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 01, 2013, 02:27:09 PM
An important note: This is only worth it when you have at least 3 formers terraforming any given square (it breaks even at 2).  In fact, spreading out your formers makes for an even more efficient terraforming strategy, albeit one that gives returns a tiny bit later in the earliest stages.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 01, 2013, 03:54:15 PM
If you are going to build a road at all, I think it is best done before terraforming (except remove fungus or terraform level).  For example, if you plant a forest first, I believe building a road takes more time than it would on just open ground.

There are many reasons one might have to revisit a square.  It could be that fungus has overtaken.  Or that your needs have changed, and a forest needs to give way to some other development.  Or you may need to send military units to deal with a worm boil, or an enemy invasion.  Or it may be time to improve the road to a tube.  In an case, having the road makes it faster to deal with any of these things, since the unit can move and begin the improvement (or attack) on the same turn.

I also tend to deal with terraformers in packs that can generally complete the desire terraforming in 1 or 2 turns.  It makes the management of their tasks a lot simpler and faster for me, and is much more effective than automating the formers.  So if I am building forests, I generally use a pack of 4, less with WP, of course.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 01, 2013, 04:27:25 PM
If you are going to build a road at all, I think it is best done before terraforming (except remove fungus or terraform level).  For example, if you plant a forest first, I believe building a road takes more time than it would on just open ground.

Yes in the case of planting forests (not sure about fungus), otherwise I don't think it matters unless you're using at least 2 formers on the square.

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There are many reasons one might have to revisit a square.  It could be that fungus has overtaken.  Or that your needs have changed, and a forest needs to give way to some other development.  Or you may need to send military units to deal with a worm boil, or an enemy invasion.  Or it may be time to improve the road to a tube.  In an case, having the road makes it faster to deal with any of these things, since the unit can move and begin the improvement (or attack) on the same turn.

And on how many squares will any of those things happen?  If it's substantially less than the number of squares in your entire territory (I'd guess it probably is), then it probably isn't worth having more than a normal road network.  (Also, remember that worm boils and enemies can use roads too; if you build roads everywhere they can generally get where they want easily, but if you have only a network going through cities you'll have a substantial mobility advantage in your territory.)

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I also tend to deal with terraformers in packs that can generally complete the desire terraforming in 1 or 2 turns.  It makes the management of their tasks a lot simpler and faster for me, and is much more effective than automating the formers.  So if I am building forests, I generally use a pack of 4, less with WP, of course.

It does, however, add substantially to the cost of terraforming; in the case of forests, you end up spending 6 former-turns (1 to move the road-builder, a second to build the road, and 4 to build the forest) instead of 5, a 20% increase.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 01, 2013, 11:36:53 PM
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It does, however, add substantially to the cost of terraforming; in the case of forests, you end up spending 6 former-turns (1 to move the road-builder, a second to build the road, and 4 to build the forest) instead of 5, a 20% increase

But, I get the road built, which I want anyway.  If I wait to build the road later, I will need to move a former back onto the square, costing an extra trun, and it will take longer to build the road after the forest has been planted.

I also get the value of getting the forest 3 turns sooner than I would otherwise get it.  That is 1/2/1, or at least 0/2/0 (with a crawler), for three turns, just because I built the road and could use a former pack.  And it is much less realtime consumed by me to play the game this way, which is an important consideration since I typically have at least 4 games going at the same time.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 01, 2013, 11:51:51 PM
I do the same for the same reasons - 'though it hurts a little to do so in the opening turns.  Do you pre-road everything, or just a path towards the closest base(s)?
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 02, 2013, 12:41:48 AM
I pre-road pretty much in the order I want to terraform, although I do build roads between bases even if I don't intend to terraform those square for awhile, just for common defense, and ease of movement.

When I get the tech (or if reverse engineering is allowed), I usually build a couple of speed 2 formers dedicated to road construction.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 03, 2013, 12:19:32 AM
But, I get the road built, which I want anyway.  If I wait to build the road later, I will need to move a former back onto the square, costing an extra trun, and it will take longer to build the road after the forest has been planted.

Of course if you're planning to build the road anyway it's better to do it before, but why would you want roads everywhere rather than just a network between bases?  Roads everywhere isn't a big boost in terms of your movement, and is a huge boost to enemy movement (hence, worse defense).

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I also get the value of getting the forest 3 turns sooner than I would otherwise get it.

An average of 1 turn before, actually: Instead of getting 5 forests on turn 4 (and then repeating), you get 1 forest on turn 1, 1 forest on turn 2, 1 on turn 3 1 on turn 4, and 1 on turn 5 (and then repeating).  Of course, that's only the first set of 5; the second set of 5 is on average at the same time as with non-roads, and then it goes further from there.

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And it is much less realtime consumed by me to play the game this way, which is an important consideration since I typically have at least 4 games going at the same time.

Ah; I prefer to play only one game at a time, and often make it a long one.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 03, 2013, 12:50:49 AM
I have to revisit a lot of my squares at one time or another, particularly if there is rising water, which there almost always is, even if I keep my ecodamage to zero.

When I want to revisit a square to build a borehole or a mirror or to drill to aquifer or to raise land, I don't want to send a single unit and wait forever for it to happen.  So I have typically packs of 4 or 6 or 8 formers (sometimes more) for these things.  Furthermore, as I move along my road to get to where I want to terraform, my pack moves at most 2 square down the road, and then builds a forest or farm or sensor or something.  This takes me a little bit longer to get to where I want to terraform, but my formers are fully productive all along the way.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 03, 2013, 02:29:17 AM
I have to revisit a lot of my squares at one time or another, particularly if there is rising water, which there almost always is, even if I keep my ecodamage to zero.

Ah...what, the other factions produce a lot of ecodamage?
Although even so, if you can delay it long enough, "launch solar shade" is a perfect counter to rising water if you can get it passed.

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When I want to revisit a square to build a borehole or a mirror or to drill to aquifer or to raise land, I don't want to send a single unit and wait forever for it to happen.  So I have typically packs of 4 or 6 or 8 formers (sometimes more) for these things.

But on how many squares do you do that?

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Furthermore, as I move along my road to get to where I want to terraform, my pack moves at most 2 square down the road, and then builds a forest or farm or sensor or something.  This takes me a little bit longer to get to where I want to terraform, but my formers are fully productive all along the way.

That should work fairly well even if you just have roads between cities.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 06, 2013, 11:55:36 PM
I have found that most multiplayer games end up dealing with a lot of rising water, particularly if AI is involved.  Most AI faction seem to pay no attention to ecodamage.  So revisiting square to raise them happens far more often than I would like.

Also, even with low or even zero ecodamage, I still get fungus spread and an occasional fungal pop.  If I have a road already on that square, it is much easier to get a former pack to the square to get rid of the fungus and replace my original terraforming.  Fortunately, speading fungus and pops do not damage the underlying roads or magtubes.

I also do a lot of "daisy-chaining".  For example, when I create a new supply crawler (pre-magtube), and my nearest mine or energy farm is a couple dozen squares away, rather than sending my crawler to the mine and taking whatever delay that involves, instead I can move the crawler 3 squares along the road to a mine, displacing the crawler there, and send that crawler 3 square further down the road to another mine, etc., until the last displaced crawler is on an unused mine or energy farm.  But this requires roads between the various mines and solar farms and such for this to work.

Finally, when I have to deal with an enemy incursion, whether another player or mind worms, I like to have a very active defense.  My primary defense is to send speed 2 or 3 units down the roads/magtubes to attack the enemy units whereever they might be.  If I have a good network of roads, this kind of active defense is very doable. 

If I can catch units when they first land, I can kill one or more units, doing collateral damage to all of the units in the stack, making the rest of the attackers far less effective. 

If I catch a stack of land-based mindworms, the collateral damage kills all of the mindworms in the stack.  This is particular important in the mid to late game, where a single stack of mindworms may have 10 or more units.  If you wait even one turn, all of those units have an opportunity to spread out and attack, and given the 50% land attack bonus, probably each of them killing one of your units.  Furthermore, after they have spread out, each one must be killed individually, instead of killing all land-based mindworms in a single attack.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 07, 2013, 12:03:43 AM
If you can keep track, you can run out the movement points for a crawer, then go back and click on it to get it working the square.  I have to use the technique a lot when I'm trying to reach something distant...
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 07, 2013, 12:14:28 AM
Yes, keep all of your crawlers working every turn, even while moving them to a distant target.  After you have moved your crawlers, whether daisy-chaining as I mentioned earlier, or just straight movement, click on it to work the square you are currently on (unless a city or another crawler is already working that square).  Just look for any crawlers without the "O" symbol, and get them working on something!
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 07, 2013, 12:20:45 AM
I have found that most multiplayer games end up dealing with a lot of rising water, particularly if AI is involved.  Most AI faction seem to pay no attention to ecodamage.  So revisiting square to raise them happens far more often than I would like.

If it's that problematic, it's not too difficult (if everyone agrees) to reduce the rate at which the water rises.

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Also, even with low or even zero ecodamage, I still get fungus spread and an occasional fungal pop.  If I have a road already on that square, it is much easier to get a former pack to the square to get rid of the fungus and replace my original terraforming.  Fortunately, speading fungus and pops do not damage the underlying roads or magtubes.

Naturally, but "occasionally" isn't going to justify having roads everywhere, especially when you consider that it's a lot weaker defensively.

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But this requires roads between the various mines and solar farms and such for this to work.

Actually, it's sufficient to just have roads along the path, so roads between bases would probably be enough.

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If I have a good network of roads, this kind of active defense is very doable. 

Definitely; having a network of roads makes sense, it's just having roads everywhere that I'm questioning, and that's actually counterproductive in the "enemy invasion" situation, since a road network can be channeled through your bases (hence being largely unusable by enemies), whereas roads everywhere cannot.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: ete on February 07, 2013, 12:41:23 AM
Unless bases are really far apart, assuming adequate sensor/ZOC coverage and an active defense, you should not be too worried about land attacks going for your heartland (unless maybe you made every square a magtube, which I don't think he's suggesting). If they have the force to break the first base they hit, they'll take it. If they go further in between your bases trying for a soft target you'll have time to counterattack earlier. I don't see it as likely to be a significant weakness defensively, and even the occasional returning to squares justifies them if you've got former turns you don't urgently need elsewhere.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 07, 2013, 01:13:38 AM
Unless bases are really far apart, assuming adequate sensor/ZOC coverage and an active defense

Depends how much of an active defense, and how soon it can be ready.  You can get away with a lot more of your defense being passive at the start if they take more time getting through your territory.  Obviously you'll need an active defense eventually to actually get rid of the invaders, but with a strong passive defense as well, not having roads everywhere buys you more time to respond (build counterattackers or even research the necessary tech.)
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 07, 2013, 01:37:59 AM
Indeed, I only build magtubes between bases, and to some remote harvesting areas.  Occasionally, I will build a magtube branch to get me to within 3 squares of a mindworm incursion, so that my rover can attack at full strength.

You should always have units available in various regions for active defense, so that you can hit invaders (especially mindworms) the moment they show up.  Once you have your cities linked with magtubes, you won't need region based active defense, since you can get to any region on magtubes.  But I always keep a lot of units available for active defense.

With land-based mindworms, it is particularly important to hit them the turn that they show up.  If you do, then you can kill an entire stack of 10+ land-based mindworms with a single empath land-based attacker.   If you wait, they will spread out, and then you will have to kill each mindworm individually; meanwhile, the mindworms will get a chance to kill any of your units in range.

With human invaders, the need for immediate attack is not quite as urgent.  Still, if you can hit them while they are still stacked together (usually transports will dump all of the carried units in one or two stacks and hurry away), then the other units in the stack suffer collateral damage.  It also minimizes how many of your units that they will get a chance to attack before you can stop them.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 07, 2013, 01:55:06 AM
You should always have units available in various regions for active defense, so that you can hit invaders (especially mindworms) the moment they show up.  Once you have your cities linked with magtubes, you won't need region based active defense, since you can get to any region on magtubes.  But I always keep a lot of units available for active defense.

Ah; I generally consider that a waste of resources, and prefer to keep force counts low (some defense in each base, not much more) unless things are getting serious.

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meanwhile, the mindworms will get a chance to kill any of your units in range.

Well, they can usually be evacuated (in either the case of mind worms or invaders).
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: ete on February 07, 2013, 01:59:40 AM
Having an effective active defense is likely to be both much more useful (can go kill MWs, stop foes from sitting back and killing your improvements) and much cheaper than maintaining enough passive defense at each base to hold off attacks, because you need fewer units to defend if your counterattack is strong and you're well aware of them being on their way (sensors).

Evacuating? And letting the worms come to your bases/eat improvements, or the foes do what they like?
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 07, 2013, 03:03:10 AM
For the reasons ete mentioned, I think it is very shortsighted not to keep a strong active defense.  I have had midgame pops that brought a dozen mindworms visiting, and lategame pops with over 20.  Killing all of them immediately is critically important.  I will divert as many formers as I need to extend magtubes if necessary in order for my rover to reach them with only 3 moves on road (6 with hovertank).  God help you if you did not build roads in the vicinity of the mindworm boil, because unless you have enough speed 2 formers to build the road on the fly, you are out of luck!

If you can reach the land-based mindworm boil with your rover (I generally keep some empath rovers for this purpose), you can kill them all in a single successful attack!  If they are air based (locusts), then oddly enough you can still attack them with your empath rovers, but you will only kill one at a time.  Once locusts start showing up, I buld a lot more empath units for active defense.  But even after locusts start to show, I would estimate 3/4 of the boils are still land-based.

If you fail to kill the mindworms (or at least contain them with trance units), they will spread out rapidly, destroying units, destroying terrain improvements, and attacking cities (killing population and improvements once they wipe out the defenders).  And now they will be much harder to kill, because you will have to track down and kill each mindworm individually.

So I can't overstate the importance of active defense, and how foolish it would be to delay even one turn, given how much harder they will be to kill one turn later, and how much damage they could do in that turn!

I generally build clean defenders; although they cost more up front, they pay back quickly, because I rarely lose my active defense attackers, so they can hang around for 100 turns or longer.  I generally build a several X/1/1 attackers to attack human invaders, where X is the highest attack I have available.  (Understand that if I am invaded, I will build magtubes to the point of invasion, so my infantry can attack at full strength.)  Such units are relatively inexpensive, often costing as little as 3 rows of minerals for clean attackers.  If I expect to face human attack before I get magtubes, then I build some rover attackers first, typically 6/1/2, or whatever I have available.  I sometimes don't make these clean (to lessen the cost), but make sure I have only one homed to each city, as the only non-clean unit that city is supporting.

I also build several (sometimes lots) of clean empath rovers, and station them in various sectors of my domain.  These are often dedicated mindworm attackers, so I will make the 1/1/2 Clean Empath, or depending on the reactor I have available, I will add whatever level of attack I can as long as it does not increase the cost too much.  I usually build these earlier than the human defenders, simply because I face mindworm attacks far sooner than human attacks in most games.  Once I have magtubes available, I will then shift to building 1/1/1 Clean Empath, which has the amazingly low cost of only 2 rows!  Then I depend upon magtubes (usually built on the fly that turn) to shuttle the low cost but amazingly effective worm-killers to the boil.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 07, 2013, 03:32:29 PM
because you need fewer units to defend if your counterattack is strong and you're well aware of them being on their way (sensors).

Not always; defensive sensors and defensive facilities are pretty significant multipliers.

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Evacuating? And letting the worms come to your bases/eat improvements, or the foes do what they like?

For your bases, passive defense, or even (against worms) attacking with non-empath base defenders if you're not running Free Market, would still work well.  Terraforming would take some damage, of course, but unless you're frequently at war it would seem to me that replacing it would be easier than having to have a full army ready at all times.

I have had midgame pops that brought a dozen mindworms visiting, and lategame pops with over 20.  Killing all of them immediately is critically important.

Why?  Even if it takes a turn or two extra (it's not going to be more, as you've still got a network between bases and pops are always near the responsible base), it's not the end of the world.  Especially if you have a few empath choppers (possibly with r-lasers); those clean up worms fairly fast if you've got a good PLANET rating (and if you're getting a lot of pops, you should probably switch to running Green, and Cybernetic if you can).

The ability to kill a lot of them together is definitely nice, but probably not essential (especially since they'll probably all head toward the nearest base and therefore not spread out that much anyway.)  Well, unless you're running Free Market even when ecodamage gets really high, but then you can cut ecodamage by focusing on nutrients and energy rather than minerals so that it doesn't happen that often.

Also, if you have magtubes between your bases with a typical spacing, most if not all squares can be attacked by a rover in 1 turn anyway; a magtube network is as good as a system of psi gates on the continent, and that's enough for rovers to attack any square in any base's radius without a hurry penalty.

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I generally build clean defenders; although they cost more up front, they pay back quickly, because I rarely lose my active defense attackers, so they can hang around for 100 turns or longer.

Of course, that's still resources that mean delaying facilities or formers.

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I generally build a several X/1/1 attackers to attack human invaders, where X is the highest attack I have available.  (Understand that if I am invaded, I will build magtubes to the point of invasion, so my infantry can attack at full strength.)

So then what's to keep the enemy from leaving some invaders in reserve (possibly with former support) to move up and kill your counterattackers?

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Once I have magtubes available, I will then shift to building 1/1/1 Clean Empath, which has the amazingly low cost of only 2 rows!  Then I depend upon magtubes (usually built on the fly that turn) to shuttle the low cost but amazingly effective worm-killers to the boil.

The net result of that is that each loss to mindworms costs you 20 less minerals, but most fungal pops (regardless of whether you lose units) cost you an extra 3 former-turns for the on-the-fly magtube, more if you have to cancel something to get the formers available.  With a low loss rate (which should happen with empath troops), I doubt it'd be worth it.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 07, 2013, 09:33:55 PM
The key is to kill the mindworms BEFORE they can do any damage.  And yes, they will spread widely apart, as far as road and fungus can take them.  Considering that 49 potential squares can be reached at 3 squares distance, it is unlikey that very much clumping will occur after they move, and if you don't get them all then, they will spread out further.

The cost of send some formers to build magtubes is NOTHING compared to the havoc 20+ mindworms can do in one turn.  Each of those 20 mindworms will kill a unit is one is close by, or attack a base, or destroy a terrain improvement.  Of these, perhaps the least damaging is the terrain damage, yet it would cost a minimum of 80 former turns to repair the damage 20 mindworms can cause.  And that is if they hit relatively small stuff.  If the also take out some boreholes, mirrors, and such, it could be a LOT more turns.  So a dozen or 18 turns to build out the magtubes is a cheap price to pay.

Then if I don't kill them on turn 1, instead of killing them with a single attacker on my part, I have to make 20+ separate attacks.  Why would you advocate such a strategy?  The defensive troops are not that costly, and are cheap insurance.  And you can have mindworm attacks while producing ZERO ecodamge; it has happened plenty of times to me.

As for the invaders, if they do have a second wave, they will need to attack the same turn that they land, which probably means that they are more costly.  Also, I usually build a few defensive units, that I move to protect my X-1-1 clean attackers, so that I take a minimum of casualties in counterattacks.  Perhaps t_ras can chime in here; he has recently seen my active defense in action, including my defensive ECM rovers to handle counterattacks.

Also, if I have the extra formers available, once I have constructed the magtube, I also build a sensor near the mindworm boil or invasion point, for the extra bonus.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 07, 2013, 09:51:51 PM
The key is to kill the mindworms BEFORE they can do any damage.  And yes, they will spread widely apart, as far as road and fungus can take them.  Considering that 49 potential squares can be reached at 3 squares distance, it is unlikey that very much clumping will occur after they move, and if you don't get them all then, they will spread out further.

The cost of send some formers to build magtubes is NOTHING compared to the havoc 20+ mindworms can do in one turn.  Each of those 20 mindworms will kill a unit is one is close by, or attack a base, or destroy a terrain improvement.  Of these, perhaps the least damaging is the terrain damage, yet it would cost a minimum of 80 former turns to repair the damage 20 mindworms can cause.  And that is if they hit relatively small stuff.  If the also take out some boreholes, mirrors, and such, it could be a LOT more turns.  So a dozen or 18 turns to build out the magtubes is a cheap price to pay.

I suppose that makes sense.  However, keep in mind that your "49 potential squares" calculation is assuming roads everywhere; if you don't have roads except between bases, they're going to be a lot more limited in where they can go.

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And you can have mindworm attacks while producing ZERO ecodamge; it has happened plenty of times to me.

Even with a lot of mindworms?  I've never seen that.

(By the way, something you should probably know about mindworm pop numbers: The number of mindworms (and whether they're there at all, and I think whether they include locusts) depends on how many pops you've had previously: The more pops, the worse it is.  However, there's a bug (fixed in all versions of my patch) where building tree farms, hybrid forests, centauri preserves, and temples of planet count as pops for that purpose (they never spawn worms themselves, but do make future pops worse, though less likely to happen.)

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As for the invaders, if they do have a second wave, they will need to attack the same turn that they land, which probably means that they are more costly.

So you always manage to destroy the entire invading force the first turn?

Also, what if they're not landing, but rather coming from elsewhere on the continent?

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Also, I usually build a few defensive units, that I move to protect my X-1-1 clean attackers, so that I take a minimum of casualties in counterattacks.

Ah, that makes more sense.  Having only X-1-1 units didn't seem like it'd be the way to go.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 07, 2013, 10:28:40 PM
The key is to kill the mindworms BEFORE they can do any damage.  And yes, they will spread widely apart, as far as road and fungus can take them.  Considering that 49 potential squares can be reached at 3 squares distance, it is unlikey that very much clumping will occur after they move, and if you don't get them all then, they will spread out further.

The cost of send some formers to build magtubes is NOTHING compared to the havoc 20+ mindworms can do in one turn.  Each of those 20 mindworms will kill a unit is one is close by, or attack a base, or destroy a terrain improvement.  Of these, perhaps the least damaging is the terrain damage, yet it would cost a minimum of 80 former turns to repair the damage 20 mindworms can cause.  And that is if they hit relatively small stuff.  If the also take out some boreholes, mirrors, and such, it could be a LOT more turns.  So a dozen or 18 turns to build out the magtubes is a cheap price to pay.

I suppose that makes sense.  However, keep in mind that your "49 potential squares" calculation is assuming roads everywhere; if you don't have roads except between bases, they're going to be a lot more limited in where they can go.

Even if they only spread to 9 squares (because of no roads nearby), the effect on those 9 squares is devestating.  And it still means 9 places to attack, instead of 1.  And they still continue to spread.  And the problem is, if you do not have roads already built, you may not be able to reach the mindworms to kill them when they first arrive.

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And you can have mindworm attacks while producing ZERO ecodamge; it has happened plenty of times to me.

Even with a lot of mindworms?  I've never seen that.

It has happen to me plenty of times in Market Forces.  All of my bases produce zero ecodamage, but I still get spreading fungus (almost always containing a pile of worms) and pop (which always carry a pile of worms).

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(By the way, something you should probably know about mindworm pop numbers: The number of mindworms (and whether they're there at all, and I think whether they include locusts) depends on how many pops you've had previously: The more pops, the worse it is.  However, there's a bug (fixed in all versions of my patch) where building tree farms, hybrid forests, centauri preserves, and temples of planet count as pops for that purpose (they never spawn worms themselves, but do make future pops worse, though less likely to happen.)

I have tree farms, hybrid forests, and centauri preserves in every city, so that could account for the high number of worms I get.

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As for the invaders, if they do have a second wave, they will need to attack the same turn that they land, which probably means that they are more costly.

So you always manage to destroy the entire invading force the first turn?

Also, what if they're not landing, but rather coming from elsewhere on the continent?

I nearly always manage to destroy the invaders very promptly; the ones I do not kill the first turn, generally have suffered a couple of burst of collateral damage, which reduces their effectiveness.

If they are coming overland, then this indicates to me that diplomacy has failed (I usually treaty or pack with those close to me), and that I need to gear up for full blown war.  In this case, I am not content to just repel their probing forces, but I will probably switch over to miliary production and make my next goal the acquisition of my neighbor's empire.  I will still use my active defense units to destroy what I can of the enemy, and I may break roads or magtubes if needed to slow down a larger enemy force until I have time to gear up. 
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 07, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
Even if they only spread to 9 squares (because of no roads nearby), the effect on those 9 squares is devestating.  And it still means 9 places to attack, instead of 1.  And they still continue to spread.  And the problem is, if you do not have roads already built, you may not be able to reach the mindworms to kill them when they first arrive.

In my experience, they haven't spread all that much, though you apparently have a lot more experience than I do.

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It has happen to me plenty of times in Market Forces.  All of my bases produce zero ecodamage, but I still get spreading fungus (almost always containing a pile of worms) and pop (which always carry a pile of worms).

Wait, you have 0 ecodamage but still get pops?  Would I see it with the save you provided earlier?

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I have tree farms, hybrid forests, and centauri preserves in every city, so that could account for the high number of worms I get.

Well, it's one of the two things changed in my patch version 1.2 as compared to Kyrub's (if you use default alphax variables), so you might want to try a game with that and see if that helps.

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I nearly always manage to destroy the invaders very promptly; the ones I do not kill the first turn, generally have suffered a couple of burst of collateral damage, which reduces their effectiveness.

Doesn't that require that they all be more or less in the same squares?  If you've got magtubes everywhere, why can't rovers spread out the turn they land?

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If they are coming overland, then this indicates to me that diplomacy has failed

So you can see them in time?  How far ahead of your magtubes do your sensors extend?

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and I may break roads or magtubes if needed to slow down a larger enemy force until I have time to gear up.

Of course, that does hurt your movement as well; the advantage of a network between bases is that you can use it and the enemy can't (well, except by taking your bases or avoiding ZoC somehow).
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 16, 2013, 04:25:37 AM
To answer a few questions:

1. I don't build magtubes everywhere.  You are quite correct, that would be insane, from a defensive standpoint.  I generally only build magtubes between cities, and an occasional distant route like to an energy farm.  I do upgrade a few roads to magtubs on the fly if needed to reach a mindworm infestation or an enemy invasion at full strength for my active defense.

2. I do occasionally get pops with 0 ecodamage at all of my cities.  (They may be "fungus spreading", but either way, they are packed with lots of mindworms.)  The save of Market Forces I posted illustrates this.  Make sure that all bases are at zero ecodamage.  About every 4 turns or so, you will still get a major big time mindworm invasion.

3. One of the big reasons for roads everywhere is crawler adjustments and daisy chaining.  It makes it much easier for me to get crawlers to exactly the squares I want them on, and to push new crawlers 3 squares to an older crawler, and push it down the road to another good place to crawl, perhaps displacing another unit, etc.  (daisy chaining).  This way, if the closest useful uncrawled resource is 27 squares away, instead of moving 9 turns down the road before I finally get to it, I daisy chain so that the new crawler is IMMEDIATELY useful.  A good road network helps a lot with this.  Also, sometimes I want to juggle which cities crawlers get some high value resources (like 7 mineral mines).  Roads help me shuffle around my crawlers as I want.

4. Roads also help to get a pack of formers to the next place I want to terraform, with some movement intact so that I can terraform as I move down the road, and still get 2 moves down the road (instead of the usual 3), but terraforming as I go.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 16, 2013, 04:40:29 AM
...I make a point of trying to bottleneck my magtube networks through my cities, so only I (and allies) can get good use of them...
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 17, 2013, 12:43:01 AM
2. I do occasionally get pops with 0 ecodamage at all of my cities.  (They may be "fungus spreading", but either way, they are packed with lots of mindworms.)  The save of Market Forces I posted illustrates this.  Make sure that all bases are at zero ecodamage.  About every 4 turns or so, you will still get a major big time mindworm invasion.

I found the reason: It happens right after you build a robotic assembly plant.  Robotic assembly plants provide the bonus minerals on the turn they're built, and thereby push you over the clean mineral limit.  If you check the base in question after the pop, you will see that you are no longer at 0 ecodamage.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 17, 2013, 03:09:12 AM
That brings up one of my peeves with SMAC.

All checks should be done based on the state at the end of your turn.

So drones riots should be checked based on your state at the end of your turn, before population growth and before anything is built.  That is the only thing you can actually check on your turn.  If your city list shows all of the drones under control, you should be safe to end the turn.  Instead, you have to micromanage, checking every city if it is going to have population growth, or is something going to be built that will increase drones, etc.

Similarly, ecodamage should be checked based on your state at the end of the turn, before anything new is built.  For again, that is the only thing that you can easily check.  It is too much micromanagement to worry about whether a particular build or SP might put your over the ecodamage limit.

This is probably something that cannot be modded, but it is a real bother.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 17, 2013, 04:18:02 AM
This is probably something that cannot be modded, but it is a real bother.

In order to mod it, you'd need to have it check each thing twice, once for the effect and once for the display.  It would probably be easier just to make it so that such things don't cause drone riots and ecodamage the first turn they occur, but even that would be a pain to do.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 17, 2013, 04:50:47 AM
Is it possible just to perform the checks at the end of the turn, instead of the beginning?  Then display the result of the check next turn?
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 17, 2013, 05:07:18 AM
Is it possible just to perform the checks at the end of the turn, instead of the beginning?  Then display the result of the check next turn?

That'd be more complicated yet, and performing the checks at the beginning of the next turn before it modifies for facilities/projects built and population growth would come out to nearly the same thing.

However, a word of warning: It would cut both ways.  So the effects of a robotic assembly plant wouldn't affect ecodamage the turn it was build, but neither would a Centauri preserve.  The effects of population growth wouldn't affect drone riots, but neither would building a rec commons.  (For that matter, neither would the positive effects of population growth, in terms of bringing in more energy to convert to psych.)
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 17, 2013, 02:35:01 PM
I am fine with a delayed effect on positive things, as long as what I see at the end of the turn is what I get.  I don't like the micromanagement required to predict that the base will grow next turn and preemptively act.  Same with ecodamage.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Lord Avalon on February 17, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
The Citizens tab of the Base Operations Status screen (F4) shows bases that will go into drone riot the next turn.  I often get into one-more-turn mode and click enter before I remember to check it. :P

It'd be nice if there were a similar function for new eco damage.  Of course you'd still have to remember to check.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Earthmichael on February 17, 2013, 03:12:08 PM
But that is the very problem.  The Citizens tab of the Base Operations is not a reliable indicator.  It does not take into account population growth and facilities, so unless you visit each city and figure out which will grow, and which will build negative facilities, and preemptively deal with what you think will be the result of this, then you get drone riots.  This is the kind of micromanagement I would like to avoid.

I want it so if Citizens tab of the Base Operations says no drone riots next turn, then there are no drone riots next turn.  Predictability and avoidance of micromanagement is my goal.
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Lord Avalon on February 17, 2013, 03:30:00 PM
Hmmm, I thought it did account for pop growth.  I have seen a drone on the Citizens tab, when it doesn't yet show in the city itself, i.e., it is not currently in drone riot.  Next turn it grows and goes into drone riot.  Of course, I don't know how reliable that is - maybe there are times when it doesn't show.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Roads: The Key to Efficient Terraforming
Post by: Yitzi on February 17, 2013, 03:40:47 PM
Some ideas that might help mitigate the micromanagement (since making it so what you see at the end of the turn is what you'll get next turn will be a substantial hassle, and therefore likely to wait quite a while):
1. The bases screen (F4) has 3 views.  One of them is "citizens", which shows your citizens in each base (talents, workers, drones, specialists).  This can help you narrow down a lot what needs checking for drone riots:
-Anything with the maximum population doesn't need checking, as it won't grow.  (After a point, many of your bases will have max population, and just by "lining up" the citizens (seeing they're all in the same horizontal position on the screen) you can see that they're the same.)
-Anything with more drones than talents generally doesn't need checking (exceptions: University at population exactly 3, or exactly 7 except on Transcend, or exactly 11 except on Thinker and Transcend, etc.)  With psych-boosting facilities, those will be fairly common.
-In the late game, anything with population at least 20 doesn't need checking, as any new citizens will become specialists anyway.
-And beyond that, you can just notice how long until the next population increase.
2. For ecodamage, anything that isn't building a production-enhancing facility and finishing it next turn won't see a jump.  (Exception: If you already have production-enhancing facilities and build Nessus mining stations; the minerals from satellites themselves don't increase ecodamage, but the facility increase to that production does.)
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