Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Mart on December 19, 2014, 06:02:01 AM

Title: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on December 19, 2014, 06:02:01 AM
This is something, that can be considered for modding.
Like 10 years ago, on Apolyton, there was a mod created and presented: Aldebaran. The last (never finished) version was Aldebaran 2.
Link (http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/117553-Aldebaran-2-Smax?s=)
In there, foils and cruisers were "switched" with places. Cruisers were first in a lower tech, while foil was coming later. Cruisers were slower, foils faster.

Let's consider speed:

Cruiser can be considered a standard hull ship. Typical speeds go to around 30 knots. Destroyers, which are lighter ships, could go to maybe 40 knots, with a record for a French class 45 knots.

Foils, let us consider Russian Zubr-class, 55 knots (sustained) top 65 knots?

And what was first in our history?
Ironclad is like 1860.
Foil according to wikipedia, first was a small one built in 1909.

Any thoughts on that?
SMACX graphics suggests strongly, that we have foils in-game of the kind like Zubr-class. Shouldn't cruiser-foil be in SMAC the way it is in Aldebaran mod?
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 19, 2014, 08:53:46 AM
IRL, hulls are still prefered over foils because they're more resistant to foul weather.
Once waves become to high, foils need to stay in port.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: ete on December 19, 2014, 01:41:51 PM
I remember an early screenshot showing foils on land, which also makes sense (though possibly not over rocky ground?). I think if the game was to be significantly redesigned foils and cruisers should be differentiated better, but not necessarily swapped.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: The Odor on December 19, 2014, 02:17:24 PM
I remember when in a game in SMAC i ended up with a foil ship in a land base. It was initially a coastal base, but nearby was a pod earthquake, and raised the altitude level of that base...
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: gwillybj on December 19, 2014, 05:39:35 PM
I have them swapped in my alphax.txt, just as Mart described. It just feels right to me :dunno:
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 19, 2014, 06:28:07 PM
To me, the SMAC(X) foil graphic looks more to a hovercraft then a (hydro)foil. What with the bottom 'skirt' the design shows.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on December 19, 2014, 07:05:17 PM
IRL, hulls are still prefered over foils because they're more resistant to foul weather.
Once waves become to high, foils need to stay in port.
And maybe this is the reason they made it slower in the game. Overall, hull based ships can travel almost all the time, while foils much more often need to wait to travel further.

I remember an early screenshot showing foils on land, which also makes sense (though possibly not over rocky ground?). I think if the game was to be significantly redesigned foils and cruisers should be differentiated better, but not necessarily swapped.
I wonder, if they also, in regard to foul weather, planned to limit foil chassis tile access. They might move on shelf water tiles only, where one could assume less large waves. On land, maybe they planned only on flat tiles? And so, foils were kinda galleys or triremes in SMAC, but finally they resigned from allowing them to move over land.
For better representation of foils, we would need something like that - game engine capable to move foils on limited water tiles and limited land tiles.

I have them swapped in my alphax.txt, just as Mart described. It just feels right to me :dunno:

and from Apolyton, smacksim:
Quote
#CHASSIS
...
Foil: Moves 7 instead of 4. Note, appears later than Cruiser.
Cruiser: Moves 5 instead of 6. Cost reduced to factor 4 instead of 6.
...
We can still change some of chassis parameters to mod our way of cruiser/foil

from Aldebaran alphax.txt:
Quote
; Names..., Speed, Triad, Range, Cargo, Cost, Preq, ...Large names
...
; Speed   = # of moves
; Triad   = Movement (0=Land 1=Sea 2=Air)
; Range   = Range in turns from base (air units only)
; Missile = Chassis is a "missile" (destroyed after attacking)
; Cargo   = # units transported (multiply by reactor rating)
; Cost    = Cost factor of chassis type (normally equal to speed)
...
#CHASSIS
...
Foil,M1,      Skimship,M1,   Hoverboat,M1,   Coastal,M1,   7, 1, 0, 0, 2, 4, AdapDoc,  Megafoil,M1,       Superfoil,M1,
Cruiser,M1,   Destroyer,M1,  Cutter,M1,      Gunboat,M1,   5, 1, 0, 0, 4, 4, Industs,  Battleship,M1,     Monitor,M1,
...

original alphax:
Quote
Foil,M1,      Skimship,M1,   Hoverboat,M1,   Coastal,M1,   4, 1, 0, 0, 2, 4, DocFlex,  Megafoil,M1,       Superfoil,M1,
Cruiser,M1,   Destroyer,M1,  Cutter,M1,      Gunboat,M1,   6, 1, 0, 0, 4, 6, DocInit,  Battleship,M1,     Monitor,M1,

Practically only 3 parameters can be adjusted: speed, cargo, cost.

Let's compare them
foil speedcargocost
original 424
Aldebaran 724

cruiser speedcargocost
original 646
Aldebaran 544


These changes are not much, but the major difference is small cost compared to speed for the new foil, 7 speed for cost of 4. They new foil have less transport capability and that may compensate part of it. And cruiser is the other way around, speed 5 for cost of 4.
These changes seem to me very reasonable, and when at first I played Aldebaran, it felt weird, but then I started to like this arrangement.

Can it be made more like in our technology, steel hull cruisers and hover vessels?
If we cannot differentiate water tiles or land tiles for that, maybe restricting cargo more?
So this new foil (would be hover vessel) comes later in the tech tree. It is special unit - faster, but can carry less cargo and is more expensive for its larger speed. In the game, it seems to me, that speed is much more crucial parameter than cargo.

hull type speedcargocosttech tree
cruiser 544early
hoovercraft 818later

 
To me, the SMAC(X) foil graphic looks more to a hovercraft then a (hydro)foil. What with the bottom 'skirt' the design shows.
Yes, I wonder why they named it foil? Maybe some people call hovercrafts foils?
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 19, 2014, 07:13:43 PM
Yes, I wonder why they named it foil? Maybe some people call hovercrafts foils?

In any case, this gives you an option for an extra type of maritime vessel: the hydrofoil with the graphic of a cruiser. The current 'foil' graphic could be used for a hovercraft type of vessel.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on December 19, 2014, 07:36:43 PM
you mean, to have a third type of sea type hull?

That would be interesting, but we either replace one, or the game engine must be able to take one more chassis type.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 19, 2014, 07:52:55 PM
Yes.
Hovercraft (foil graphic), uses maybe the gravship chassis (isn't used much anyway because it comes so late in the game)
Cruiser (cruiser graphic), your classic naval hull.
Hydrofoil (cruiser graphic + ability graphic that shows thoses waves underneath the hull). Just to make the difference clear to the user/player.

I don't know out of my head which abilities have a graphic linked to them, but maybe a useful one can be 'hard defined' and have its .cvr file renamed so it fits as a unique hydrofoil ability. Nano fuel cells ability or something.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on December 19, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
Gravships are fitting the three air units, copters have 1 turn fuel, needlejets 2 turns, and gravships can be outside bases indefinitely. For modding, I would bring them earlier in the tech tree.

We lack capability to add a chassis type.
Hovertanks are also quite useful, they come late in the game, but their ability to move through rough terrain is something worth having, not to mention cool chassis graphics.
Right, they might change the chassis type name to foil, so it would be easier to differentiate with hoovertank.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 19, 2014, 08:40:03 PM
I didn't realize we're limited to the current eight(?) chassis.
To me, the gravship chassis simplifies the military part too much in the late game. It is my prefered chassis type to use early with limited movement capacity. So using it as a hovercraft would fit the bill well for me. And best of all, it isn't affected the Maritime Control Center. :D
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on December 19, 2014, 10:51:14 PM
As far as I know, no attempts to add chassis types were successful, unles there is such way. It looks like heavily hardcoded with additional capabilities, caviar files.
Tough decision to replace gravship for me. I like early game, but I would happily see well balanced late game.
So you would keep air domain for such hoovercraft? It would have movement on land and sea in that case. But what with the game applying air benefits/penalties for it?
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 19, 2014, 10:55:05 PM
There's always the option of adding something to units.pcx - provided turning and updating don't matter...
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 20, 2014, 10:40:56 AM
So you would keep air domain for such hoovercraft? It would have movement on land and sea in that case. But what with the game applying air benefits/penalties for it?

Been too long since I played a SMACX game. Don't know if non-SAM units can attack gravships. Or if it benefits from say nanocells or the Cloudbase Academy.
If those air benefits apply, and if possible, I'd put it solely on the naval domain then.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 20, 2014, 10:44:55 AM
So you would keep air domain for such hoovercraft? It would have movement on land and sea in that case. But what with the game applying air benefits/penalties for it?

Been too long since I played a SMACX game. Don't know if non-SAM units can attack gravships. Or if it benefits from say nanocells or the Cloudbase Academy.
If those air benefits apply, and if possible, I'd put it solely on the naval domain then.

There's always the option of adding something to units.pcx - provided turning and updating don't matter...

That only really helps for adding unique units with free/extra abilities working within the limits of an existing chassis.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 20, 2014, 02:45:25 PM
Assuming a bit of .exe modding - you'd be able to do several appearance upgrades...
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on December 20, 2014, 04:28:48 PM
I guess you need to use the :whip: more often. ;)
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Yitzi on December 22, 2014, 01:08:45 AM
Assuming a bit of .exe modding - you'd be able to do several appearance upgrades...

Adding a new chassis type would be more than a bit.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 22, 2014, 01:20:48 AM
I was talking about a static unit figure like the native life - no workshop or components, just enabling upgrades using the multiple slots a row...
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on January 10, 2015, 10:38:22 AM
I found this webpage:
Link (http://www.hydrolance.net/page12.htm)
describing some designs of very fast boats - twin hull, that could achieve speeds 60-100 knots, and even 150 knots, as the designers mention, should be possible. It is like water-planes.

As I think about it, a true hoverboat would be an excellent chassis, unfortunately, present game engine does not allow for units of 2 domains: land and water.
It could be simulated in special only-human scenarios, where an air unit would pretend such hoverboat. Air units, however have disadvantages when used like that:
- cannot explore unity pods
- get air bonuses/penalties and not land or water
- tested foil as air domain with loaded scout over a unity pod made that pod vanish! This might be chassis slot effect, but it needs checking.

A player would need to restrict him/herself to move only over agreed tiles, e.g. water-shelf, flat without forest, maybe without mine/borehole too, ... no moving over rolling or rocky tiles.
It would be an interesting unit type.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Yitzi on January 11, 2015, 12:35:11 AM
I was talking about a static unit figure like the native life - no workshop or components, just enabling upgrades using the multiple slots a row...

I don't even know if that would require .exe modding; what are the filenames for the existing static unit figures?
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on January 11, 2015, 04:18:41 AM
They're refered to by the numbers 0 to 9 at some position in the #UNITS section of alpha(x).txt.
-1 on that position means the game will use .cvr parts.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Yitzi on January 11, 2015, 07:35:54 PM
They're refered to by the numbers 0 to 9 at some position in the #UNITS section of alpha(x).txt.
-1 on that position means the game will use .cvr parts.

In which case, has anybody tested if putting in a 10 and creating a file with the number 10 there will work?
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Geo on January 12, 2015, 03:51:56 AM
Not that I know of.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on January 12, 2015, 01:34:50 PM
Numbers 0-8 refer to icons in units.pcx file. Sealurk is 4, battle ogres are 6, etc.
The last one is a missile with "xx" on a side, which I also used some years ago. Darsnan was using it for a pre-designed nerve-gas missile.
Below that missile icons are mindworm flags, and maybe these coordinates are hardcoded?
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Yitzi on January 12, 2015, 05:57:22 PM
Numbers 0-8 refer to icons in units.pcx file. Sealurk is 4, battle ogres are 6, etc.
The last one is a missile with "xx" on a side, which I also used some years ago. Darsnan was using it for a pre-designed nerve-gas missile.
Below that missile icons are mindworm flags, and maybe these coordinates are hardcoded?

Oh, so it's various icons in a single file?  In that case, there's a good chance that there is a hardcoded maximum, and in any case that changing the file would mess up all the stuff that comes after it.
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Mart on January 12, 2015, 06:52:32 PM
Not necessarily a maximum. If you take a look into the units.pcx file, you will see, that number of icon can be a multiplier for getting pixels of a given area to crop from. With x coordinate being dependent on morale in some cases - sealurk or fungal tower, or just few units, like there are only three battle ogres. It looks like heavy hardcoding. And y coordinate is multiplied by icon number.
Pcx files have some unused graphics on ocasion, and I'm not sure, if these mindworm shields are used, but then, there would be needed hardcoding of their position, unless, they refer to position counting from bottom of the image (universal solution). If so, you could extend pcx in y direction with icons 9, 10,11, ...
Title: Re: Cruiser vs. Foil
Post by: Yitzi on January 12, 2015, 10:41:46 PM
Not necessarily a maximum. If you take a look into the units.pcx file, you will see, that number of icon can be a multiplier for getting pixels of a given area to crop from. With x coordinate being dependent on morale in some cases - sealurk or fungal tower, or just few units, like there are only three battle ogres. It looks like heavy hardcoding. And y coordinate is multiplied by icon number.
Pcx files have some unused graphics on ocasion, and I'm not sure, if these mindworm shields are used, but then, there would be needed hardcoding of their position, unless, they refer to position counting from bottom of the image (universal solution). If so, you could extend pcx in y direction with icons 9, 10,11, ...

Could be.
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